EP105 - The worlds BEST golf coach (Phil Kenyon guest)

I think there's something unique about the ryder cup which comes out on a sunday evening. And basically the europeans party better oh definitely [Music] welcome back to rickshaws golf show podcast everybody i'm your host rick shields i'm here with co-host guy and we've got a fantastic guest on today.

Mr phil kenyon thanks. For coming on it's episode number 105 is it yeah believe it. Or not okay if that's a good number. Or a bad number for you but i quite like it good for our listeners um we're gonna dive into your background your life you are one of the well if not the world's best putting coach do you ever go do you ever kind of like flex that a little bit. Or not it makes me feel embarrassed actually something about it i don't know it's kind of cringey when people say things like that i think i would be having it tired everything looks like a choking cheese here i'd have it on the side of my car. And i love it everywhere well it's weird because we went to mcdonald's today.

And rick pushed the front of the queue and the number one subscribed golf youtuber in the world move peasants i didn't say peasants i said commodores oh yeah sorry get out of the way um. So i thought we'd kick things off with a quick fire guy's got nine questions for you yeah. So as i said we're going to deep dive into your life your incredible um story you know what you do day to day i think is just mad i think people will love hearing how you've got to where you are. But before we do that phil we've got um quickfire questions. So they're really simple you can one word answer them. Or if you want to elaborate that is entirely up to you. So first one nine holes or the driving range me personally yes you personally driving range interesting one normally it really surprises me. For a putting coach is it just because you want to get away from putting um no i enjoy practice right yeah. So um if i had a choice i think i could hit more balls in that period of time. And be more constructive with my time okay. And i'd look at it from a pragmatic point of view wow but i'd encourage everyone to go play last question then.

Twist on that driving range or put in green for you driving range this is interesting uh number two netflix. Or youtube netflix oh are you a big netflix fan hate youtube just downright hates it i'm guessing obviously you're on the road loads you must have completed everything from netflix to amazon primed a lot do you know no i haven't i mean i've actually only just got into netflix over the last year really yeah. So we had it for years never watched it i don't really watch a lot of tv yeah um. And then.

Obviously i had a bit more time on my hands watching tv so got into a few shows and um netflix amazon prime stuff yeah. So i watched the odd show on that but other than that it's basically sport yeah odd bit of news. And then.

I feel like your netflix viewing would be quite factual based um i don't feel like you're watching the housewives of cheshire no i reckon you've watched the last dance michael jordan yes yeah that was good f1 was was good about that one. Yet i didn't like f1 and then.

I watched that and then.

I found myself watching races now and reading up on it well that isn't the rumors they might be doing like a golf version of this kind of netflix show yeah who do you think could be good. For that top of your head who would be who'd be up for it oh it's gotta be it's gotta be poulter he's gotta be free he'll be good actually he will be good because he's quite insightful isn't it you'd love someone like pulter bubba watson. And then.

Someone like on the complete opposite end of the spectrum maybe who's kind of just a journeyman who's been out there forever like a steve stricker just to see like the contrast of different people but that'd be something to look forward to well this question we've asked these questions we've asked other people so this one i thought i knew the answer to but you've thrown me already off your first one driving or putting and you can interpret that how you will. So if it's the one you're in well in fact which you enjoy the most and which is most important to the average golfers game it's a tough one isn't it tough questions i honestly didn't expect you to even give this a moment of thought. So i mean. For me putting obviously but driving i mean statistically you've got to drive the ball well you've got to put well haven't you the contribution to the game i think is would be fairly equal i don't know statistically off the top of my head. But i'm putting accounts for 20 to 35 percent of a pga tour players um performance so 35 of a pga tour win is contributed by putting i don't know what it is. For a driver but it's significant i mean they're both important aren't they i mean. So does it change from tour level. So does it change from a tour player's perspective driver versus put in compared to an 18 handicapper driver versus putting i don't know to be honest i feel like well i always think of this analogy right let's say tommy fleetwood okay you took him with an 18 handicap around the golf course yeah would he shoot a lower score if tommy took all of his driver shots. Or if tommy putted for the 18 handicapper and the 18-handed capper would hit all the other shots i think if tommy drove. For them they probably score better i i would say i would think. So statistically because the odd 18 handicapper is gonna roll in a monster as will tommy fleetwood obviously there's. So many um shots isn't that off the tee yeah. So you're going to avoid penalty shots i mean 15 yards makes a massive difference yeah i mean that's a one shot per round. So of course tommy's hitting it a lot further than 15 yards so i would say yeah driving off the tee would be the big impact. For the but on the flip side if you're a tour player and you said right i'm going to guarantee you 10 yards longer with every t-shirt you have. Or i'm going to reduce your putting on average by one shot around well one shot you go put him because i don't think 10 yards contributes to one shot doesn't. So there we go interesting no real answer. But it's interesting to talk about first app you open in the morning gmail yeah fair play um okay this is a good one a guster 18 holes on your own. Or 18 holes at a local muni with tiger woods and two of your friends first question have you played augusta no i feel like you you've got a better opportunity than most to play it right i'm not sure about that it's been a while i've still not played it that is a really good question i would say augusta on your own. And just just loving it well i don't know tiger i don't have many friends so i might as well go and enjoy augusta um would you would you find yourself obviously if you played on someone like augusta and we i want to come on topic in a bit we spoke about it briefly so this morning if you don't obviously you won't know this because you listen to the podcast actually the lesson of phil kenyon the world's best putting coach this man right over here and uh hopefully he's gonna help improve my putting stroke um i'm gonna ask you a question there about augusta greens if you did go. And play augusta for example would you spend just hours on the greens like would you or would you just play golf i mean obviously you've watched augusta many times right yeah yeah i've been lucky enough to get on the course because during the tournament week uh coaches aren't actually allowed on the course you're not allowed anywhere near it is that right yeah i didn't know that. So literally it's player and caddy that's it no way no you've got to keep outside of the ropes. But luckily i've been there um prior in the weeks prior with players and then.

You can get out on the course you can get on the green. And get a feel for you know the place so i don't know what my question was would you find yourself spending a lot of time on the putting green if you if you actually played it i'd probably find myself spending a lot of time in the trees. But i think. And i think people would find themselves spending a lot of time on the greens because difficult. So you'd be hitting a few puts um but yeah i mean it would be fascinating place it is a fascinating place. And i think you couldn't help if you were there hitting a few extra puts. And going. And hit a putt to that particular pin position yeah i mean that that's the sort of great thing about augusta is when when we put it on each each year we kind of know what's coming don't we just certain extent because we know the pin positions we know the kind of difficult puts yeah you can almost read the breaking yourself can't you you know through the tv. So yeah i i'd spend a lot of time on the greens trying to replicate certain puts. Or certain chip shots around the green like you get you go to the back of the 16th you'd have to you know you'd have to and you'd have to go in the trees on 13 where mickelson hit his shot from and you'd have to go in the trees on 10 where bubba hit that ridiculous shot from in the playoff like you've got to go to these spots because i like the little tourist attractions in a in a big tourist attraction really yeah. So that's the good question we've got a couple left that's the good questions out the way you can't take the questions that's the now the rubbish questions but rick is known obviously as a golf youtuber. But he's also a fantastic badminton well he's a massive sports enthusiast and a massive massive football fan which will come on to. But he's also as of late as he says become a huge badminton fan and you still quite like playing darts so if you had half an hour spur would you rather have a game of darts or a game of badminton that's a terrible question but i like the fact you put some thought into the answer i mean i dislike darts um yeah yeah i find it boring have you seen a lot of these kind of studies where it says like darts is the like the hardest sport in the world no i'm not buying that i don't believe that i think it's golf it's too stationary you're just throwing something aren't you yeah it's too it's calculated it's measured i think it's snookers it'd be a bit like your putting green i went on today.

From standing from that spot to the hole if you did that all the time you'd get outrageously good at it yeah that's a bit like that's a bit like that's what i'm trying to get if darts were. So hard you won't be able to have 50 pints and do it maybe golfers need to 50 fights. And do it on that basis badminton the last one um again rick's become massive football fan as of late huge he uh do you support rick this season is united yeah depends at the moment i'm in a transfer window of my own late night. And villa at the minute either aston villa newcastle anyone anyone that i think might do well i know the news who do you support your liverpool fan liverpool yeah goodbye damn sandwich between two scousers oh you love the liverpool fan yeah good result that the other week wasn't it it was a very good result five five rick texts me afterwards because he watches the games oh well well played mate you beat us today.

No chance now you've lost your sports director oh someone needs to talks about the way here as well you gotta eat on top spot on the way here actually yeah very good well that was the um. So welcome anyway to the podcast you probably thought more golf than this but on a serious note um you as rick said you are renowned genuinely as the world's best putting coach. But how did you start playing golf. And how did you get to where you are now um. So my mom and dad play golf the members of hillside and um i think i first sort of showed a bit of interest when i was sort of eight. Or nine and then.

Toyed with it didn't really get the bug and then.

I think it was when i was about 11 years old one summer really got into it. And then.

That was it i was hooked. So as a kid played all the time a junior member at hillside loved it what a place to be as yeah yeah yeah awesome it was a it well it is a great course. But it was it was a real it was a happy place. For me like as a kid we had a great junior section um you know it's a it's a good golf club so yeah i really enjoyed my time playing golf there got reasonable that's it what was reasonable at that kind of time frame when you were a junior i think i got down to about plus two when i was 18.. So which was a decent handicap then.

I mean it's two penny now they're all like plus six seven aren't they yeah. So you're a plus doing old money in old money how we remember it yeah back in the day yeah when you had that low trajectory ball. Or that you know when a persimmon and yeah everything else. But it meant yeah um. So yeah got down to about plus two played england school boys stuff like that. So i was playing fairly decent competitive level golf um. And during those years i had a family friend called harold swash who you may know we do. But explain to the audience who might not yeah. So harold i mean he's passed away in 2016. um. But he was one of my dad's best friends. And harold was a world famous putting coach. And designer of putters and training aides so he he had like um a great reputation within the game but he was my dad's best mate that's crazy you know they were really good friends. So and harold was always sort of um helping out the juniors. And spending time with people he was a very he was a good guy to be around. So i got to know him spend a bit of time with him and uh i'd help him do certain things i'd like carry his equipment on a on a clinic over at mere golf club stuff like that i'd do certain things. And i used to caddy for him he used to play yeah yeah he's a good player yeah he was yeah he um his claim to fame was i think he qualified. For a couple of european tour events as an amateur when he used to pre-qualify oh wow so he could play um and we got into trouble once actually at hillside because we had a game and the game was. For 50 quid or 10 caddying jobs okay. And i won right so he paid me 50 quid but it was deemed to be gambling on the golf course. So we got into a little bit of trouble well that was the kind of guy that he. And he'd have probably known harold he'd have made me caddy for him 10 times um but he was happy to pay i feel like yeah i don't feel that was a fair kind of bet really well it was back then.

Fiverr. For caddying was good money oh really we're talking old money here okay okay old handicaps no money yeah um. So yeah. So i got to know harold and so i was always kind of around putting. And his coaching stuff like that um 18 finished college went to uni um and i was a bit undecided about what i wanted to do at that time. But uni was a good option. For me because um i got to do sports science psychology. And sport science i was always interested in that side of things. And what uni did you go to liverpool okay. So i could i stayed at home which gave me an opportunity to carry on with my golf and have a bit of that security and everything so i did that um enjoyed it you know really good um yeah liverpool's great city isn't it. And i think i did my undergrad. And i stayed on and did a post grad in uh i did an msc in sports science because at the time i was still thinking you know i'm going to use my degree to in in some way. And just a quick one here then.

Would obviously playing off plus 2 at 18. did you have any aspirations to like kind of turn pro i did at that time yeah definitely. But i was unsure right because you know i didn't think i'd be good enough. And i also valued my education yeah. So for me going to uni staying at home was an opportunity. For me to continue with my golf get an education see the rest of both worlds i guess so but i was still kind of like when i did my undergrad i was still like you know still didn't know what to do. So i stayed on did a post grad. But then.

When i finished that i decided i'm going to have a go here turn pro. And what how old are you at this point 21. Or something um or maybe a bit older yeah. So 23 something like that i think. So it's like five years at university yeah. So yeah four years i had a year out in between after college yeah in between uni which i forgot about it's a long time ago well that's the whole idea of the year it's the whole idea of a gap you're supposed to like enjoy yourself. And forget about it so um yeah i turned pro basically after i did my masters. And played mini tour golf for a number of years i think about five six years. And during that time i needed trying to earn money as well i mean i got some members of hillside were fantastic with me had some guys that that sponsored me. And helped me out um and you know low-level golf like that it's hard you're not playing for much money you've got a lot of expenses so i was also trying to earn money. And i would basically help harold right now so that kind of that tire came back around again yeah. And then.

I i played really didn't kick on as what i would have liked to and i think the one thing that i think i did well looking back was i gave myself a time frame of like listen if i'm not hit a level by here then.

You need to look at something else do you think that's sometimes missing in kind of golf at an early stage because in a lot of other sports you'll get told you're not good enough really if you're football you're not getting picked. For the team if you're in other sports you just you it's quite blunt you're not good enough in golf you kind of yourself you have to do that yourself to a certain degree because you can carry on playing professionally if you want to. So the fact you put a time frame on it do you feel like that was kind of your way of going right that's my deadline that's what i've got to get to if i'm not there at that point i'm not going to make it. For me when i look back i'm glad i did that because i think it's easy to continue. And you could easily get end up in your mid-30s and you've not gone anywhere with it and it's a tough game isn't it but it's evol the thing is with golf there's there's always that romantic idea. Or and you see it where people you know in the i think there's a guy on the pj tour this year who's got his card in his early forties oh is this the guy that was um english guy yeah i can't remember his name now. But he'd been going through david yeah yeah we'd been through loads of other tours. For a long time yeah mad yeah yeah. But finally guys i mean unless you're playing pga tour. Or european tour yeah you're not really making much money yeah um. But he he did it. And he's there 40 so he'd never knock anyone but i mean i've been fortunate i felt a little back at my career now you know i'm happy with the career that i've had. And the opportunities that i've had and how i've been able to provide for my family and yeah if i look back. And think if i hadn't made that decision what would i be doing of course. For me i'm glad i gave myself a time frame didn't make it and then.

For me then.

I looked elsewhere an interesting question in that timeframe when you were trying to make it as such. And you were playing all these mini tours like were you good were you we were you a good player at that time not really when i looked back i was crap what were you what was your strengths well i would say like um i was steady i wasn't very long yeah um. But i would i'd be fairly accurate decent iron player good around the greens go putter decent putter yeah yeah i would say it was a strength. But i had a lot of ad harold helping me of course um yeah. And was he working with many players at that time harold yeah yeah he he had to you know over the years he's worked with a lot of players i mean if you go back to like generation of faldo langer woozen he worked with a lot of those guys. And then.

More more recently patrick harrington he worked with him yeah um. So yeah i mean he coached a lot of you know top players over the years i don't know when this came in because one thing you kind of didn't mention a minute ago about harold was that one of the reasons why he of all also became much more popular. And famous yeah because of his line of putters yeah the yes putters yeah um. And did that when did that come into the time frame was this before you went to university. Or afterwards when did when did yes kind of come about just trying to think now. So i i was i was still playing when yes i was starting to get some traction right. So it was fairly new when you started yeah working with a little bit more with it yeah yeah. So i can remember sort of the early designs. And the evolution you know of that product and it blew up it went crazy it did i think we were talking about before. But i mean at one point i think it had like second largest market share in the uk that's crazy it was it was a number one putter on the european tour. For one event yeah. So they had i think in south africa it was the most popular putter used. So they they had in a short period of time they were very successful with it um. And then.

When i when i packed him playing and started coaching that was actually a big um leg up. For me in that within a couple of years of just sort of coaching full-time yes wanted to um take the product on tour yep. So they were looking. For a tour rep and harold said to me do you want to do it like you know maybe about eight eight to ten events you could go to. And take the product out and what they wanted to do because it was kind of they had like this unique selling point about around the grooves. And ball roll what they wanted to do was to provide a service a fitting service rather than just like handing out putters let's go. And fit people educate people around the product so harold put my name forward to the company and the company who said yeah it's a perfect fit. So i went out and and sort of did that. And it was good. For me because the i knew i knew some of the players i played golf with at junior level or professional level throw some names out be like ain't garbett who was playing there mark foster yeah um guys like that. And this was you were going out on european tour yes yeah. So i went out there and you you're there you're fitting players and you're spending time with players you're learning from players and they're also then.

Picking your brains and they they appreciate that you're coaching and it just it was it was a good experience. For me because it kind of put me into a certain environment that i learned a lot from and built relationships and then.

Started to help people and that was a yeah gave me a real leg up in terms of my coaching. So quick one when you realized you you gave yourself a deadline of playing yeah did you already have coaching in mind yeah was that natural where you're going to go into. And when you stop playing and start coaching you go straight into putting coaching or everything coaching more or less i mean like did you do your pga at that yeah i did my pga yeah did a hillside at the end of your play yeah my final year yeah final year i enrolled on the pga i was doing that hillside i was teaching at hillside yeah. So brian sedan was a pro then.

Yeah yeah i was doing that under brian um started the ymg program which is young masters golf. So teaching the kids that had that going yeah yeah. And teaching a few of the members but then.

Also working with harold but i'd say within two years it was very quickly became just like 100 putting right because you had a passion in it like oh yeah you had a passion well the opportunity isn't it. And the opportunity and the passion yeah um you know harold had um like i say a great reputation. And there was an opportunity to help him then..

And develop um some of the stuff so yeah it was it was a combination of both quick question it's kind of not off topic massively. But obviously yes putters they're all named after women yeah is there any story behind any of these women do you want the official line. Or the x-rated line whichever you want to give us no there were. So the i don't know if you remember when ratif goosen won the us open i do. So he he won it with a particular model yeah. And um i think the model had us like. And it was named like a number. Or it was an uninteresting name now i don't know if i'm probably allowed to say this. Or not but i think there was at the time some discussion in terms of a commercial agreement possibly with retief. And whether they were gonna sort of um you know name the poor after him. Or something like that anyway it fell through okay. So they named it tracy which is named well ratif's wife is called tracy. And then.

From that they just named the models after significant women that were involved in the company in some way oh okay. So like um well there's an emma emma which is harold's granddaughter oh right wow callie yeah i'm not sure about kelly uh i'm trying to think of some other off top of my head do it i had a tracy too i remember just loving that putter. So much yeah. So nice i think i might have had a cali now i've just said that. But so that's that's the story behind it yeah they basically named after significant women um in the company. Or associate with the company and then.

Obviously a lot of different models come out so whether then.

You just end up being ladies names not sure where they came from but yeah that they take me back to my junior days even looking at them now on google i think it was like 2000 3004 seasons that was when golf was my absolute life yeah. And i remember that at the time they weren't silly money either i remember i don't feel like they're about between eighteen hundred quid might be a bit of a blurred memory on that but that's what they were definitely cheaper than your rodison stuff at the time. And deal with just everybody had them the c group technology i mean i never obviously i didn't go into the technology you have today.

So i couldn't see it massively working but it felt like it did the wind grips they had the magnetic head covers it really looking back now yeah the yellow. And the black it was quite light the grip was um i forget now who came up with that decision. But at the time you didn't have different colored grips and it kind of stood out you could put the tv on and you knew instantly i recognized it it's funny isn't it how in golf like looking at a certain club from an era can they take you back to town there was a tiffany elizabeth they were great. And that as as now people might see better nardy have made a very similar one for matt fitzpatrick that's been all over the um is that tracy 2 kind of shape yeah. So matt used um a tracy 2 and he's used it since he was 15. i fitted him. For that putter yeah honestly yeah. So i've known that and coached him since yeah 15. wow um. So he he's used that particular model up until last year and um he he was. So basically sort of replacing it i mean obviously clubs don't last do they did they get damaged to get knocked. And transit and um he was he kept on having to try. And replace it and it just became an issue um and ultimately a manufacturer basically replicated that putter for him right yeah i bet i've got a couple spare in my storage i think i'm gonna go on ebay tonight. And try and get one because well i think he was buying buying ones off ebay eventually. And getting them refurbished but they never they're never the same you know they don't his exact one that he wanted from when he was 15.. So that ties in quite nicely with was that a process that you did out on tour. Or was that separate again. So when you fit matt with that putter no matt came to the studio. So we had this studio in southpaw which was actually above the distributor. For yes golf right um because that was within within the uk harold's son-in-law sort of ran the distribution yeah. So we had this putting studio above um yeah. For one of a better word of warehouse yeah. And then.

Yeah fitzy came. For a lesson um you know we used to do a lot of fitting in uh is an integral part of any lesson of course. And uh yeah fitted him. For his first c groove that's crazy so you're 23 24 you're out on tour now fitting for yes. And providing a service for the players and kind of building that side of your new business your career as such when did that kind of start to cross over towards you starting to help players was that a very natural point from there. Or did you have to almost move at different levels again yeah. So i think um every year sort of rolls into one doesn't it. But i'm in my late sort of 20s here now yeah um. And the first few years yeah i'm a big responsibility in terms of the tour stuff from doing my coaching outside of that um back at home in southport. But then.

I'm building a sort of bit of a reputation a bit of a client base um out on tour and i remember there was a point where a few guys actually said to me listen we'd like to formalize this i need to pay you. For the help that you're giving because you're there and you're just helping players it's part of like your effectively your role building relationships helping players of course and you're just trying to make them put well with that putter yeah they're using the product at the time yeah you know. But fitting can often progress into coaches they can it can blend. So and ian garbett was basically my first client. And it's quite funny because ian now is one of the tour managers. For uh callaway yeah. So i have a relationship with ian now because i worked closely with callaway and ian was one of my first clients. And he was like listen you're helping me i need to pay you. For it. so i went to francis ricky who's the ceo of yes. And i like francis and i've got these clients um they're wanting help and they want to pay me for it you know what what do i do you happy with this. And francis says as long as you do your job then.

You can do as much coaching as you want. And you know arrange what you need to do. So that was great yeah. So that was great. For me so it gave me that freedom and you know um made sure i did my job in terms of yes golf. But then.

Yeah started working more. And more with players and and then.

Ultimately that kind of snowballed to a point where i couldn't do um both of those roles. So i basically relinquished the job as tour up just to focus on my coaching and did you sorry did you did you find that as soon as you started because obviously your coach at the moment have been local people at the the golf club members maybe some beginners maybe some juniors it's not a whole lot of pressure coaching people of that ilk typically it's nice. And enjoyable as soon as then.

You've got ian paying you money hard cash to be that person's coach did you find there was a shift in in responsibility almost in pressure on you as such not really no that's good yeah i mean the the one the one thing that i would say is early on in my coaching career because of harold i was exposed a lot to good players. So i was in at the deep end in that sense. And i think whenever you're working with a better player there could be a sense of responsibility because it's easy to mess them up isn't it um. So i never felt like that because i'd always been in and around working or in around people of that that level yeah um. And i think everyone's important aren't they whether they're someone new to the game. Or or 10 handicapper or whatever so you just focused on trying to give the best lesson but i never felt any additional pressure in that way which is good because you don't want to yeah you don't want to feel it like i remember brandon grace was one of the first ever tour pros i i met. So he moved over here to manchester united working with ism and he came over here i think with charles schwarzel. And louise and hayes at the time and i kind of formed a really nice relationship with brandon i really got on with him played a bit of golf with him but did casual i was never kind of helping him as such. And i moved to trafford golf center and he came to come and see me wanted to hit some balls i had a flight scope he wanted to get some numbers and he kind of just said um rich am i videoing my swing i'm gonna send it back to my coach instantly i was like oh my god like i'm videoing a swing of like a tour player like. And i wasn't even giving him any advice i wasn't helping him but for me because i probably did go from beginner junior the local member to boom up-and-coming tour star one of the best players that could you know obviously you know now he's gone on to be a world be to one of the best players um that's played i was like oh my god this is like a huge level of responsibility. But i never that was from a to zed very quickly where you felt like you'd come gone up that graduation over a period of time which is nice yeah that's not to say that you don't have experiences where you you feel nerves. Or you feel responsibility because i have i could go through them but at the time i never felt like oh i'm in at the deep end here because i've been in at the deep end earlier on probably well one of the questions i have that kind of baffles me and perform at your studio where there's so much kind of technology and there's so much kind of going on is that like obviously putting stroke looks quite simple in theory probably the best strokes are the most simple i would imagine. But how do you become like an expert in the stroke. And how do you continue to learn because i guess that's like the piano it never changes the piano is the piano. But like with the introduction of technology certainly in the time that you've been out on tour you know that like the introduction of like sam put in lab and all this stuff we're learning so much like how how do you get the knowledge that you've got do you just constantly have to be reading. And learning or it's part of that you actually doing kind of experiments and stuff yourself to gain that knowledge i don't really know to be honest how do i mean it's something that i've just lived. And breathed for over 20 years so like every day you're working on being a better coach whether it's you know reading up on something or whether talking to another coach or studying biomechanics or whatever it is you kind of like you just engross trying to be better at your job don't you you accumulate experience professional knowledge craft knowledge over a period of time um. But it's just accumulation of lots of little things but it's i don't know i never really thought of it like that um but ultimately if you've studied an area for 20 years you're going to have more knowledge. And experience if you studied it for a week no it's like i've been around golf since. For over 20 years now and if i went to go and see a town's a normal golf coach or a putting lesson i imagine most things they would tell me i would not necessarily know but wouldn't sound too unfamiliar but before some of the things you talked to rick about quite high level stuff like the knowledge you i mean i'm guessing obviously you're a great coach you could dumb that down if needed. For the right clients or whatever but the thing we have to dumb it down a bit thick in it so is. But some of the things that you were talking about i'm like it's it's it's madness it's just. So like high tech and it's it's crazy i suppose the part of the challenge of a coach is doing exactly what you've just said is almost taking all the information in analyzing it. So you understand the full pattern of the puzzle let's say but being able to translate that to your student in a way that makes them understand it yeah do you have clients that want to know all the numbers. And other people just want to go feel this feel that yeah yeah totally you get you know even even your regular golfer that comes in you can get a sense that they're more analytical. Or you know even just talking to them about what they do. For a living and that they're going to buy into certain things. And then.

You get the other guy you think well i've just got to keep this simple here yeah. But certainly your professional clients you get both you know both ends of the spectrum for some guys you have to be really careful about what you tell them and then.

With others you can be as technical. And or as specific as as you want to be and you know that they can process that. And use it and then.

Go out and play with it so in terms of your time on tour i'm guessing it kind of snowballed from having a couple of clients that you said. And now obviously you are where you are i mean would you be comfortable saying who you now coach. Or is that something you wouldn't want to talk about on the podcast i don't know yeah no i'm happy with that well it'd be great to hear who you coach now. And then.

Kind of like what you're i don't know if you have a typical working week but what it actually looks like to be out coaching these superstars um well newest client would be rick shields no biggie no biggie top of the list no. So so current sort of clients that you know the viewers would know um would be tommy fleetwood justin rose um henrik stenson matt fitzpatrick we mentioned uh lee westwood uh gary woodland um francesco molinari chris wood david horsey there's some other european tour based players names world number ones ryder cup players yeah i mean you've literally got them all across the board there not an interesting league obviously with people like gary woodland a mixture of places where they are from america. And obviously like someone like henrik stenson or justin rose they live in america now as do most of tour players to be honest don't they really like it's not just people that you've kind of learned. And worked with from the european tour level it's really gone obviously global to some of the best players that's ever played really how long who's the longest client that you've had then.

Would it be matt would you say david horsey really yeah. So i first met dave when he was about 18 right um. And he must be in his early 30s now right so he'd be one of the longest standing clients fitzy would be up there of course i don't i don't know how old matt is probably i think he's my age he's over the 30s i think he's about roughly a 30 does he think he's selfish i always still look at matt as like an 18 year old how does obviously all these guys are professional athletes he's always 27 my bad like they're obviously professional guys super switched on which is why they've got to where they've got. But how does it work. For you balancing them all like if one of them's having a swing fault a stroke fault or not pretty well they want to speak to you but you're busy with like another client how how do you like balance that. And how do they never get like annoyed that they'll speak to you today.

And you're busy or whatever like it that can be difficult trying to sort of manage your workload if you're at an event. But for the most part the guys are really good they appreciate that. And you just try and organize your day and your diary so you'll be doing that maybe in the days prior um and you kind of just get through each week somehow but it you need an understanding from the players um you know they if they wanted they could be difficult if if you know i want that particular time and that's it but i think they get it. And um they're flexible and you're trying to help them you want to do your best buy them. So they kind of work with you on that but yeah if you've if it's a busy week it can be stressful trying to make sure that you see everyone. And and um they're not having to go out of their way to see you know they're the important ones at the event aren't they their preparation and the timing the schedule is the most important thing. So it can be tricky. But so i'm guessing it like a torrid con no. But i was gonna. For the most part i'll work with a good bunch of guys who are you know who work with you not against you. So i'm guessing the most time you can have most players at an event is like a major yeah the open. Or the masters or something like that it is now yeah yeah um it never used to be like that i do remember being in abu dhabi once. And i had 13 players at the event oh my gosh that was the most i was like oh my god what am i doing here i'm not going to get through this week. And then.

I managed to which was ridiculous. But then.

Like now it's you know people play different schedules so you i wouldn't i would never have that many players at an event but then.

When they all come together don't they for the big events so the you know the wg seas all the mages is when you could have mostly you know all your players there. So it does make. For a busy week do they almost like book like a lesson slot with you as such like i make them book online now i send them an email link. And you mainly do that through you'd have to again go into specifics. But through player or is it through managers. Or is it through caddies i get the people to talk to my people [Laughter] no just you just whatsapp don't really yeah yeah yeah message i'm there monday are we catching up. And then.

If you send it all off at once first come first serve don't you that was crazy um. But it's just like organizing your diary like on any other day but most tournaments because i know we've talked about you're only there really monday tuesday wednesday aren't you i'd be there more now i really i mean it used to be that i'd be there practice days. But i'd say as you know my roles change a little bit and you know my responsibility has gotten greater than and you also you travel further afield of course you can't just pop to the us for practice days yeah you know i find myself that i'm at events. For longer so yeah i'll you know a lot of times be there at least till friday. Or most of the week in a year how many weeks are you away roughly i don't want to think about that how many weeks you were at home probably i do between 20. And 25 tournaments wow okay now they're not always full weeks. But then.

I do have other activities. And other aspects of my job which also take me away as well of course so firm firm out of time overseas how's it normally working i'm just looking at the world rankings now i'm going to pick well look at john round number one like say he has a bit of about to go with his putting. And he he wants to start seeing you as a putting coach i'm guessing again it will vote from player to player. But what's the noble kind of process like would you kind of meet them for a meeting and have a couple of lessons or do they just like i guess they don't become a client instantly you've got kind of jealous people. And as your kind of philosophies fit with how they like to practice and learn and stuff so how does that process you know you get a phone call tomorrow from john ramsey's agent. Or whatever how does that normally then.

Progress to them being your client it's not that different to what you know you'd expect really is at some point they've decided that they're struggling with the putting. Or they need an opinion and um either the player or an agent would reach out and say can i get a lesson. And you'd meet with a player you'd um give them an opinion and and then.

You'd leave it with them and then.

They're either going to follow up with that. Or they're going to you know do something else. So and something like that first let's say meeting is that normally done in private away from media pronies where gossip can start. Or is it often on just a putting green at a tournament it could be either really really yeah i mean a lot of times it is at an event um. So it is in the public. Or other players can see. Or whatever but i mean ideally i like to try. And see a new student away from an event ideally at the studio where you can get all your data get your analysis you've got the time to go through stuff you don't feel pressurized. Or rushed then.

They don't also don't have a tournament to worry about of course so yeah i would prefer a student to come. And see me in the studio get our stuff go outdoors whatever um i mean i i remember the first time that i actually ever saw rory rory came to formby hall that's a guy which was a little weird. And i remember thinking at a time because if you've been to the studio and that with the window that overlooks studio basically you can see through that it's frosted now. But did it not usually it wasn't at the time no. But we we put some temporary blinds up because thinking if rory comes in and then.

People are in the shop. And they can see it just like watching going you're gonna end up you know. So yeah um. So there's an element where you you are worrying a little bit about privacy. So we put some blinds up for when he came um but yeah ideally get them away you got that privacy you got that time yeah. But very often you're not afforded that chance and and um with schedules and stuff like that you could be asked to give an opinion to someone at an event i feel like i've got so many questions but just one more i can feel commander always about like oh i don't know. But like let's just say again you're tommy fleetwood's coach you obviously are. And tommy was having an amazing run he's putting great in it great. And he's gets to world number one which obviously i'm sure you would be delighted with and you'd obviously have played an integral part in doing so and let's just say again john rahm is then.

World number two. And his putting's bad that's what's letting him lose that number one position it's a good question and john ram comes to and says phil you're the best in the business which obviously you are i want some help when i'm putting i want to get my world number one spot back how does that feel. For like you then.

Like you've got so much interest in all your athletes clearly and tommy is killing it like this imaginary time do you then.

Take on that world number two in general would you speak to tommy. For how does it work because if you give john that advice you will give him. And then.

Crack on to number one and tommy's not anymore he might be upset how do you balance it all yeah it's a good question it's a judgment you'd have to make at that time. And and um i guess i guess the nature of sort of golf coaching has been it's not like tennis where you have like one coach looks after a player and they have a contract with them and then.

That's so like in golf coaching it's been commonplace for a coach to have different players so it would not be uncommon for that to happen i guess it depends on different things i mean it's the capacity isn't it to be able to work with however. many players at that level because there's a lot that goes in. And around working with a world number one then.

Working with a guy that's five you know ranked 500. so just naturally there's going to be a lot more the demands. And the schedules and stuff like that so could you physically work with the number one and number two in the world it might be very difficult to do that um. And then.

There is the personality aspect with a player you he you know if they're very competitive do they want you of course. So i mean. For unfortunate i've never necessarily been in that position and it would be a difficult one and there'd be a lot of things that you would need to consider in that um and certainly what would be at the forefront of that is the relationships that you have already with with players um. But i know you know tommy's the kind of player that he'd be more concerned about me than he would about himself flight so he if he thought that was a good opportunity. For me and my career i don't know i mean that that's a feeling i ever told me. But i'd also you know try and put my guys first at the same time it's quite it could obviously quite put like political connect like you've really got to please a lot of people a lot of the time it is yeah i mean i i i said this early. But i've been fortunate i think that i've worked with some decent guys. So there's a lot of things that you think oh that could be a bit dicey. But they're fine with it because they're decent people so but there's a lot of things that you think oh that could be a bit spicy if that happened. Or have you ever turned out a client yeah have yeah yeah because you'd like them all because because you didn't have enough time. Or um combination of things really yeah that's interesting don't ask who should we um can't ask you should we jump jump onto an email let's jump until now obviously we'd like to have you on phil. And we've got more stories to come the the insight you've got is class. And you can tell us as rick. And i got so many questions but i've made no notes on questions today.

Because there's just. So many people smiling naturally but we have a couple of features of the show we do every week no it's just me. And rick chatting nonsense and one of the features we have is called dear rick where people can email in rick a question about anything agony yeah exactly now they can be from all sorts of different things this one's a bit of an equipment one which isn't massive to do with putting. But i think we can tighten nicely with the putters i think i'd love to hear your uh take on this it says dear rick. And rose anonymous by the way love your content and the banter between you and guys it's a nice start um with the continued emergence of these direct-to-consumer companies from brands like ben hogan etc how do you feel this will change the pricing of golf clubs. And the major brands let's be honest the argument of fitting is not all that strong because the vast majority of golfers will just buy taxes. And ping and callaway into a retail store simply because of the brand name will the quality of irons. For cheaper will the quality of these um that's not quite basically saying will brands start having to lower their costs to compete. And what's the pros and cons of buying these direct to consumer brands so again he's talking about irons yes. And how should we almost spin it on putters almost because it's the same story isn't it for me just off the cuff the advantage of direct consumer is typically cheaper because you're not paying a middleman the downside is that you don't get to feel it touch it swing it move it like have a fitting with it that's obviously the biggest downside um. But i think as a lot of people you mentioned there a lot of people will go to a store. And buy off the shelf it's still very common to happen a lot of manufacturers companies are trying to not do that these days. But they will do because even i've got guilty of that sometimes where what he's saying with direct consumer that's obviously just not an option you can't ever get custom fit it would be interesting to see on kind of your take on putters though as well. Or just equipment in general i switched off halfway through this bothered writing that yeah do you think fitting is an absolute 100 necessity. For every golfer not for every goal for no because some people are that bad you know having a perfectly fit golf club is going to make very little difference yeah. But i think every stage of development becomes a point where fitting will help um. So i think there's going to be different things. For different people direct to consumers going to help some people because they don't need to be fair they just need access to some clubs of a good value yeah. But you're always going to get the person that's going to really benefit. And would want access to fitting and a service or um like higher value goods so do you ever get annoyed by brand claims certainly putters like before. And you were giving pete that rick that last nap putting lesson that like you were showing how you know a degree here whatever there can make such a difference that's down to the person in the putter how they control that putter. But yeah you can hear a brand saying this new alignment absolutely does my tits if i'm honest. And you hear it all the time but you know claims from manufacturers about xyz and the reality is it it often doesn't make that much difference in terms of performance they'll they'll claim oh we we can improve something by 20. And really that that 20 improvement is insignificant to overall performance anyway. But it's great marketing claim um or they'll they'll talk about optimizing certain things which that optimization doesn't need to be like that anyway it doesn't work so there's all sorts of claims um which i think are bs yeah. But they make great stories and you know they you know create attention or whatever so yeah i do find that a frustrating part it's great. For us reviews like sometimes it is the story that we can kind of latch on to. And go oh that could be quite interesting let me yeah let me review that idea. Or let me review that claim um obviously you work closely with odyssey callaway did they ever bring a product out you're like oh i'm not sure if that's gonna work certainly the potter market well i think yeah i mean you'd be stupid to believe that the that every every product you bring out is perfect i mean the the good thing the good relation the one thing i like about my relationship with odyssey sean tulan joe luke all those guys is they respect my feedback yes. And they ask for it that they don't want me to sugarcoat stuff and um so you know i i give them honest feedback about it and and they can take it on border. Or they don't of course um and i think they do a pretty good job in terms of trying to improve. And develop stuff and they'll hold up their hands and say yeah that range wasn't good enough. But how can we improve it i mean everyone in every walk of life what we do is not perfect. But can you get better. And can you produce something that's you know continually involving learn from the mistakes learn from the mistakes it's funny though isn't it with put us because if you look on the pga tour the european tour you'd be you'd be hard. And someone might call it an example now it'd be hard to find a pro golfer playing for a living who's using a drive that's more than like four years old wouldn't you really most of them are gonna be playing the latest. Or maybe the last model because even at half a mile an hour of ball speed year on year it's worth having but yeah with putters. And tiger's obviously one of the most famous for this he's got a putter that's 20 years old whatever it is yeah technology has massively changed in putters. And it will continue to do. So but people who are playing. For living still often play with i know like you said matt did matt fitzpatrick an old piece of kit that just works. For them do you think that's the confidence of the putter as well is just as important as technology. And trust well i think it shows you that there are a lot more skills. And other factors involved in which influence the performance on a putting green than what it does you know off the tee. So i think technology has more of an impact of the tea than what it does on the green. And you all and then.

You know there are ink you know technology has improved on the green. But there are you know the marginal gains where there can be significant gains if you look at how driver technology's improved over the last 10 15 years. So you know you're always going to get someone that puts really well with a certain putter that'll use it. For 10 15 years because even the best technology is not going to actually improve their performance that much because of. So many other factors involved do you think if you could have a time machine now. And go back 20 years but have all the kit you've got in your studio and you got given like nick faldo you could make him in the greg norman whoever even better than they were. And how dominant they were back in the day with what you now know from science. And stuff no like i think i i i was naive enough to think when i was younger as a coach that oh if i get a chance to work with him i'll improve him. But you never know the dynamic until you get like in with that student until you get under the bonnet of the motor you really don't know what's going on. So it's easy to look at someone think i can improve it's quite interesting. But until you get the chance to work with them you really don't know there's so many variables so i think it'd be naive to think i love i could i could go back in time i'd improve him. Or if i could work with him i would improve it you'd like to i'd love to go back and work with nick aldo he's a boy boy hero or work with sevy or whatever i mean that'd be fantastic to go back now to like you know my younger days. And look at those iconic yeah one of my just uh sorry. But one of the best experiences i've had was i built a putter. For sevi oh my goodness yeah yeah. So that comes out so what was the year that tiger won the open at hoy like oh five was it was it as late as that um i'll have to google it i feel like it was. But i'm like oh no um that's wrong. So i was still doing stuff with yes at the time. And sevi played in the french open that year i think it was his last open championship that he played in at hoy lake it'd help if i could i could spell um oh six six yeah. So yeah he picked up a um a yes putter tiffany um in in france at the french open this is sevi peter putter yeah. So and in particular i think he there's a few things that we need like loft. And lie changing i can't remember the exact spec but you also wanted the white sight lines kind of covered so that it was black. So and the tiffany had this kind of like multiple layer sort of circular um lines through this middle section so i had to black all those out right and then.

He said i'll be on the range. So i went and did this. And then.

I walked down he's just on the range he was late on in the day. And he's got like people around him and walked over gave him this putter and uh yeah. So that was my claim to fame i shared a few words with him. But for me like when i grew up sevi was my hero. So just even to be able to say i built a club for him that's right yeah did he use it yeah he did yeah he used it in the open that's awesome do you remember the the putter that he had the stx one i doubt like a rubber weird shape thing it was tiffany was fairly sort of similar shape. So i think well you know what i feel a little bit good that i was just outside the sevi era because like you you missed out well you're saying now how are you that's this you you work with the best golfers in the world on a day-to-day basis. And like i could see that in your face so people are listening if you want to watch the podcast as well in your face how chuffed you were about that story about seven. So even speaking to him and we had david cannon who's wrote that book just behind you all about sevi and like i bought the book yeah the people at that is an absolute god. And i feel like i know that but i didn't really watch him enough to feel that connection i wish i did because everyone that has met him. Or played them or speaks about him it's i feel like from the sound of things you had that amazing area where you caught the glimpse of faldo norman sevi yeah. And then.

Blended so nicely into tiger yeah well i feel like i mean that was it we came straight in tiger everything before that didn't exist it does now obviously as we've grown older. And you kind of look back about that though i would have loved to have been more i might watch some more videos and stuff about savvy i feel like i need to be better educated charisma i've got a interesting story when you talk about tiger so tiger played i think it was 97 was it. Or you played at the lithium sorry at the open at the lyrium well they won the masters in 97. right so it's 96 then.

Yeah. So he plays yeah did tom lehmann win. Or i think i'm sure i've got an autograph of him in 96.. So i'm i'm still playing amateur golf then.

But a mate of mine at the time carried for him at lithum called richard noon he was a member at lythom tiger. For caddy caddy so he carried for him yeah. And um obviously like everyone started to know about tiger at that point and the following week we were playing north of england youth in a tournament i'm i'm we're talking with with the rich. And we're like so how do you carry. For him then.

And noon he always thought he hit the ball miles and allegedly that tiger hit it miles well addy cat even like what do you do. For clubbing wise i just told him what i did that was his that was his claims fame. And story but and he hit it 20 hours big every time but yeah i mean like i i remember that tiger era coming in. And then.

When you think yeah what he's achieved over his lifetime. And you've witnessed it from the the start to finish yeah of course it's incredible we're like i missed out on the jack thing really i caught sort of the end of it yeah we're watching yeah because that's another area you could have like yeah really as well. So i can't appreciate how good a player he was. But obviously being able to witness tigers but then.

He can go back one more it's like hogan. And that kind of there as well so it's like you know you can all you're always a bit envious of the the ballers like my dad is obsessed with like george best this is the best he's ever seen it's like well surely ronaldo will mess it up. But people are saying pele. And it's whatever era you're in i'm sure and the reality is it was kenny douglas anyway um do you wanna do this emails i've got a few very quick i love this one i've got a few quick questions right who is the best putter that's ever lived i don't think you can actually answer that question because you can't answer it objectively through stats because you like ben crenshaw is he you could argue you could probably say likes a credential um that's what i'm thinking of i don't know slightly older guy um oh i'm gonna have google it got in your opinion. So you could put people like ben crenshaw brad faxon luke donald you know in the more modern area we've got some stats over a period of time you know like since shotlink was introduced that we can more objectively measure what good putting performance is about. So there's certain names that will come up. But then.

It's like saying who's better than between tiger woods or jack nicholas or ben hogan you can't compare so i think you can only judge people in terms of were they the best in the era yeah um. And then.

Also just because someone was number one on the stats over a course of a year doesn't mean they're necessarily the best putter because they might not have played in all the big tournaments yeah you know. So like being able to compete the big tournaments have put well on you know in the big events there's a sick you know that's that's important isn't it so if i was going to pick someone that was going to hold a putt. For me who would it be it's probably tiger woods isn't it more because he can do under pressure yeah as well he was a great putter he was the best putter of of the great iron players yeah. So if you look at in his era you know his approach play was awesome. And then.

But he was also a very good putter. So you hit it close and then.

You you convert chances yeah it's a good combination. But then.

Also like the things that he did under pressure 72nd hole in the tournament yeah like he held. So many tory pines yeah you know hill. And all that yeah. So that's nice you've seen brad jackson's list he made he mentioned this on twitter i did i did see it you agree. So just for listeners he did it brad fax didn't put himself in. But he did the top 10 putters ever yeah he did it number 10. i'll go reverse mcelroy number 10 bobby jones billy casper elizabeth nicholas bobby lock tom watson sevi ben crenshaw. And number one tiger woods do you think that's a pretty good list brad's a lot older than me. So he probably played with that it's tough isn't it i mean like people talk about bobby lock. And and i mean i have no idea yeah statistically matt fitzpatrick is ridiculous. And he like one of the best putters yeah of the modern game i would i would say there was a there was a um someone's got a website stats website which accumulates a lot of data. And matt was up there in modern times putting wise um. And his data i mean matt plays a lot in europe. And like historically the stats haven't been great in europe in terms of publicly accessible so people will just derive a lot of the data from the pga tool yeah. But if you compare i mean matt collects a lot of his own data. But if you look at his um his data across both tours that he's collected over a period of time then.

Yeah he like statistically he would be one of the better putters um there's something else i'm going to say then.

Also what's mad we've had all this chat i've not even spoke about spieth yeah well yeah great it's like how it like i know vaccines put that list together. But i think if you looked at head-to-head spieth versus like someone like a mcelroy he's obviously i think he's done some work with macarante. But spieth has got to be one of the greatest putters certainly from that 25 30 range that's kind of ever lived i mean he literally holds outrageous amounts yeah. And and can you really judge someone like midway through their career does it not have to be like when the careers come to say true. So i think i don't like making judgments like that really personally before we come to this one more quick question i've got two more because that was the favorite way you're going to link that says making judgments um who which golfer yeah do you think would have dominated more if if their putting had been vj singh it's simple answer. So if if vj sung vijay song vj singh spots i think. So yeah yeah you seem to you seem to be pretty bang on with that well how many majors did he win was it is it one. Or none no he won the match he's won a few i feel like we should know all these stats more you're not trying to know laying up now by the way yeah. But like i don't claim to be a pj tour no um 1-3 he won 98 pga 2004. And i knew the maths in 2000. i remember the masters to be fair i forgot about the pga she's won three majors i had a second and third at the other two yeah. And he a lot of that was in his 40s wasn't it well he's 58 now. So yeah he um i remember he won at akron with a negative strokes gained putting which is very rare to do normally the winner like gains about five. And art 5.2 shots per event yeah. And he won it with negative strokes gained putting oh my goodness which is yeah very rare that someone would do that. But i would i would have a guess it if he was if he put it as well as jordan spieth. Or jason day or some of these other you know top players then.

He would have won a few more tournaments because he was one of the few guys actually really challenged tiger wasn't he yeah definitely major-wise you know um. So you should never compromise putter i feel like yeah he did oh he did black. And green he also used one of the ones where um the red dot at the back what are they called seymour seymour putter as well i'm sure he did um interesting story about him. So um i know this story from one of the caddies that used to work with him but uh he had to he got everyone around him to address him as the best putter in the world so when you go to work in the morning the caddy had to call him the best put in the world the cart boys that i think wherever he practiced you know the people that would go they'd have to call him as the best put in the world yeah he's just like me well don't they always say don't don't eat dinner with bad putters yeah they're sayings like don't if you're at a tournament don't go. And sit on a table of golfers who've had a terrible putting round because all they're going to whinge about is did you see those greens today.

That bloody lip powder i have they start on the other like you're going to surround yourself with all those negative things really good. For this now good for that right so um phil another one of our new features we've got is confessions. So golf was written in with confessions last week was the first ever one. And the guy confessed to cheating and then.

We have the uh we've now kind of named it um forgive or condemn i think we're going with. So we can either forgive them. Or condemn them and then.

We can like give them a punishment. So last week i gave the guy six months of shanks i'm not gonna give him bad bounces for life so yeah. So you want you on this as well so it's a little bit long i'm quite happy to chain him and beat well you're the most qualified here so okay myself from a plane partner have a huge confession to make after paying extortionate green fees due to not being our members at local course we decided to chance our look. And photoshop a booking confirmation email this managed to work for multiple rounds due to nobody coming around to check out booking we were playing. For free and life was breezy until dot dot dot the dreaded day arrived there was nobody at the first taste we teed off as normal with our photoshop booking saved in our camera roll after both double bogey in the first things would only get better surely as we're walking down the second fairway until the distance we saw a faint appearance of a buggy heading towards us this was the moment new eventually would come it was time to lie throw a teeth. And show the photoshop booking confirmation after confusing the member of staff they were fake booking he couldn't seem to work out why we went on the system after multiple calls to clubhouse um he was starting to get suspicious he zoomed back off the clubhouse to investigate. And said he'd be back he was on to us once he was out of sight this was that opportunity to escape we proceeded to sprint up the fur with our trolleys pushing them pushing through the players in front owen to make a quick exit out the back of the golf course through the main road. And after running down a big hill we got with our trolleys we sneaked back into our cars and escaped unnoticed and we are. Yet to return to local course we truly regret our actions and we will never ever play golf without paying green fees this has taught us a big lesson. And the fear of being hunted down and trying to escape in the golf course was not worth it i'm sorry rick. And guy so so that was from yeah who plays that. So rick what's your thoughts on this and you phil what um can you forgive them. Or do you condemn them. And if so what's the what's the punishment for that it's thieving at the end of the day forgive them that's not as bad as cheating cheating is bad cheating is very bad he um i think to some degree we've all possibly everyone's done it pulled a bit of a sly one yeah you know whatever that may be whether it's whether it's a green fee. Or you play on with your mate and you don't sign in as a member or whatever it may be i'm sure there's been a few sly ones i have but i've never gone to dixon photoshop i think that's the bit that they've got pre-meditated correct freedom premeditated green feet avoidance theft looks like it is theft. For that one yeah. So just so if you're if you're the owner of that golf course and they've done your i'm not encouraging it but i'll turn a blind eye okay that's fair. So you've been forgiven by phil kenyon you'll be happy to know big shields um yeah yeah i'll forgive him i'm sorry it's not the end of the world i'm gonna punish them um. But it's gonna be light punishment i am gonna say um that for the next.

Six months when you go to a new golf course and you do pay your green fee um what can the punishment actually got punishable always double bogey the first well they already do that we're gonna get stuck behind a slow group of seniors who won't let you through. And it will rain on the 15th hole every time six months two more questions. For you good i've got more but two more [Laughter] because i think these are good stories can you name it the time that you were most nervous as a golf coach driving to the final round of the 2016 open yes. So so you were obviously coaching stencil at the time yeah. So i remember um waking up and thinking i feel a bit nervous you know when you get that the butterflies that and i i used to get it when i used to play i never really sort of got it coaching it was this because it was literally a two-horse race well he he was you're going to warm up a player who's about who's going to compete he's in a final group competing. For a major but it wasn't even a final group it was a match play situation yeah i mean one of one. Or two of them was going to win um. But i think even even if that wasn't the case i think i would have felt nervous because you know less group out major um it's the pinnacle i guess isn't it yeah was this your first major victory well i'd worked with darren clark when he won right. But i wasn't there at the weekend i had gone home i was watching on tv. And it was slightly different scenario whether you're there. So you're smoking a cigarette opening hiding behind the couch and but you know you're there and and um you're kind of witnessing it all at first and you could easily say the wrong thing so yeah i was just i do remember being particularly nervous driving down to the club. And then.

Obviously when you get there you kind of get into it don't you and when henry comes he he he doesn't look nervous so you kind of like you you can't look nervous at that situation can you no. So i had elastic bands around me waterproof trousers and just plowed on with a job and he he was great in his warm-up he was like yeah you knew that he was ready. And i remember because he puts first so he we went we did some putting then.

He went to the range. And i thought i'm i'm done now really i'm going to go. And watch so i remember going. And watching standing back it wasn't you know pete carr and his coach was there. But i was like back basically behind the stands kind of watch it. And um he's just like flushed it in his warm up and obviously went on to win so that was a do you ever in that situation as well kind of like let's say he's putting amazingly. So he's been on the putting green with you and you're like oh my god he's literally everything's on on a piece of string yeah do you ever sometimes go to the driver range in that situation which you probably rarely do these days you're on the putting green mainly praying. And hoping they're actually going to be hitting it well as well because you can only do the bit that you can do you're just praying that you stand there. And he's flushing every golf shot under the sun well the thing is with warm-ups is that it doesn't always correlate to whether they play well. So that's true i don't think you ever sort of look at it like that um i share a few clients with pete cowan. And we'll always have a bit of a joke where if i if they're leaving me from the putting green to the range i'll just say don't come up now pete will do the same. And he'll do the same to me. So but no i mean you just the warm-up's the warm-up isn't it yeah. And then.

Um and then.

Even if they warm up great it doesn't mean that they're gonna go play well. So you don't really attach i don't think as a coach you attach too much to it unless there's something that's a particular concern that you might need to react to. But um it's more than anything it's about getting them mentally ready prepared to go out rather than like physically be perfect another question yeah tell me the time when you celebrated the hardest like what was the what was the biggest party ryder cup 2018 yeah yeah oh that was mint yeah. So i mean i've like the i had the fries i don't know how i made a plane the following morning. So paris yeah obviously just won tommy. And molinari both your yeah students at the time as well. So henrik and justin rose oh my god there's four and they've all killed it obviously molinari and fleetwood that week just played incredible um that famous putter tommy on was it 16 are you kind of yeah yeah nuts out that was that was a propper at the time they were three nil down weren't they. And they managed to i was there on the friday i can't quite remember all the scoring. And stuff but that party after would have just been ridiculous yeah it was amazing it was a it's probably one of the best weeks of my life in uh like a sporting work context um i mean thomas obviously was the captain i've worked with thomas over the years. So i've got a good relationship with him and um it was a great sport in spectacle anyway wasn't it like the first tee that the the weather was good the the crowds. But obviously that the team how the team were how thomas had set it up. So you really felt part of the team because i've been to a few rider cups and the first one i went to you felt really detached away from the team as a coach as a coach yeah you really didn't have any involvement you could literally get to the putting green. Or the range when you were alex you know when you had to. But then.

Beyond that you were nowhere near them. And then.

Darren clark i would say change that in 2016 where you went and you were literally part of the team in in the team room in the locker room had access to the players. And you really felt it was different. And i think thomas took that. And and um he ran with it and and it was slightly different because we had slightly our own the coaches had their own team room yeah. And you were allowed in at certain times. And stuff like that but that was great because you still felt like you were really being looked after. And the players that team are really good. And it's such a good experience to be part of to see how they interact with each other on weeks like that i bet um so it's just it was just a great week. And obviously we won they had a party afterwards um which was incredible. So and everyone just got absolutely larped is is it the biggest party because it is one of the only time in sport of. Or golf shall say where it's a proper team collaborative effort like when stenson won i'm sure you had a few drinks it'd have been nice probably in the clubhouse quite kind of secluded not many people but obviously a ryder cup win you've got players caddies partners coaches managers like it's a busy room yeah of everybody in that room thinking i played a little part in this i think. So i played we've done it we've done this collectively where when it's a major win something like stenson it's obviously stenson his wife his family etc a couple of coaches and that's that's kind of it that's the party yeah i mean it's just a different vibe isn't it. And i think when you put like a lot of people. And it's an event of that magnitude and the dynamic of the whole week it just elevate everything um but i mean what i would say about the europeans is the second best party i've been to is the one at whistling straits well it's just been yeah i mean if you'd walked into that team room on sunday night you'd have thought that would have been the winning team really yeah because although they got beat they they really played as a team. And they really enjoyed it and they were. So passionate about doing well they just didn't play well and the americans were unbelievable teams exactly one form yeah well every player gave it their best harrington was an amazing captain like what he did. And how he was with the players. And all the staff you know it's easy to be critical after the event and you could go back and look at other radar cups and think well god did he really play him in that pairing yeah. But they won or they got beat but the other guys won and he won the session so it's discarded now isn't it but when you lose then.

All these little things are magnified. But for me he was a great captain. And the camaraderie in the team was unbelievable. And on that sunday night it was like they'd to a point where finno i mean you know tommy he he popped into the american team room. And he's gone in and allegedly he's gone whose funeral is it obviously which apparently is very quiet. And then.

Ultimately some of the americans end up coming into the european room so you had like xander tony finau um speeds caddy really a few others and they they really it was a great night it was a great night. So it doesn't always have to be about the winning you know to create those things but i think there's something unique about the ryder cup which comes out on a sunday evening. And basically the europeans party better oh definitely yeah in the simplest sense um recently it's been a big talk a big rules change. And it's going to affect you enormously yeah can you can you dive into this a little bit kind of what obviously i saw you tweet you weren't happy yeah elaborate on this because i'm not massively clued up. But i like that phil phil would be better at describing it so they next.

Year they've basically uh brought in effectively i think it's like a local rule which will allow them to ban um the use of green books okay. And this is just pj tour well this is i think um agreed across maine like uh the main worldwide tour european i think pga. So they're gonna ban the use of green books and also within the added books the information that you can have on a green. So now nowadays the greens will be scanned prior. And you can buy. Or they don't buy they get given a green book which will have a lot of information the gradients the direction of the slope you know color-coded charts. So you get a lot of information which most people use badly or don't know how to use you know i don't think it's that much of an advantage. Or takes away people skill that much as to what people could believe it does a lot of people will be better without the use of green books because they don't use them that well they're quite it's difficult. And also it's a skill to be able to use it well to be able to interpret that information you know what is a skill is it just something that you're physically gifted at. Or can you be can a skill be like something mental. Or something that you've developed of course doing a crossword skill isn't it exactly yeah. So some people have become really skillful at using that information going back to your point playing the piano is a skill you learn it don't you you're not born with it yeah exactly. So you've obviously got that rule and that's fine i you know if if that's what the governing bodies want to do. And they say you can't use green books then.

That's fine however. where i think they've screwed up is that they've then.

Said that you can't use technology that's going to interpret condition of the green in practice. So for example you couldn't use an electronic level to gauge the slope or use a device that would measure the stimp of the green in a practice round or worse on a practice green that same week of the tournament wow and for me that's where i think they've screwed up. And i'm guessing that's something you do every week yeah. So i mean that's something that you i would do with my players. And we would use technology to you know for them to calibrate the the the slope you know perceptually or even with their feet to be able to distinguish between a shallow a medium steep slope one two three percent even measure green speed so that they can be they'll have systems. So they can adapt across different speed of greens. So yeah. For me they've taken it too far because what you shouldn't limit people's innovation in practice you should be able to use whatever means that you've got to get better at and then.

If they want to create whatever kind of even playing field let people then.

Go and play in that playing field but let them explore things let them be innovative in practice and if that means using certain elements of technology then.

Let them do it because there's other areas of the game where you can go on a golf course with a quad. Or a track man of course you can um work out how much that hole plays downhill how much the sort of identity if you use a laser in practice can't you as well yeah gp like it the pj. Or the us i think it was the pga championship last year where you could use a laser in tournaments yeah they brought it into tournament play yeah a range finder. So it's like such bits of it they want technology yet they want to strip it away from elsewhere and for why what's the why i can only assume that they're trying to take away the temptation that people could use that technology on the course. And maybe make notes from it but i mean if they want to do that stuff they could do it anyway. So i'd see no i don't i've never spoke to anyone from any of those organizations to appreciate why. But i can't see any logical reason as why they want to prohibit that stuff in practice like i i actually would say if they're trying to say it's about what we're trying to encourage skill or people you know more skillful people to come to the forefront i think it's skill limiting by saying you can't do certain things because some people will be too lazy to bother trying to develop themselves using technology other players will look at these you know marginal gains. And work hard and try and become more skillful yeah. So you're allowing people to become skillful by taking advantage of the you know the technology that's at their disposal i can tell you're passionate about this this has annoyed you on it it really annoyed me. But i one of the things that annoys me is i think in recent years the aim that the putting is an easy um cop-out. For them let's change this let's do this when the reality of the matter is that's not really affecting the game at the moment of green books not really not bringing people into the game it's not really like a slow play issue whereas there are bigger issues in the game i think the governing bodies are ignoring yeah. And choosing to pick and put in um to be seen to be proactive about trying to shape the game in a positive direction so either you need to bung the green keepers a bit of dash before the week and say what's that what's that level out what's that i mean. Or philip be going out at like midnight with like a balaclava like running across with his digital uh um spirit level it seems does seem a bit crazy it seems like it's something that doesn't need to change. And they're just changing it for the sake of it just to say oh we are making it harder. Or we're making it more challenging for the players i can see why they're doing it on i can understand. And appreciate what they're trying to do on course because i think some of that feedback has come from the players where they don't want access to the green books that's fine. But don't limit how people try and get better off the golf course yeah i i don't. And where do you where do you go next.

Like why can someone use a quad on the course. But not use a level or another device on a putting green it doesn't doesn't make sense in that respect and will it going back to that point will it be the putting green the designated putting green. For that week don't really know how it's going to pan out i mean hopefully they might modify that rule i don't think it's written in stone. And that's what they're going to do. But what they'll do they'll kind of put these preliminary rules out that are subject to change. Or they're gonna you know considering change and sometimes they'll listen to feedback and then.

And then.

Adapt them so hopefully they're gonna do that because speaking to a lot of players um they think it's stupid yeah. So it's crazy um quick plug for your website you mentioned it earlier yep philcanyonputting.com yeah if you sign up now you get a free gift eight videos to help improve your putting yes give the listeners. And the viewers just three super simple things that they could do to improve their point the next.

Time they go. And play sign up to fill kenyan.com there's the first one what did i say that's right all right that's the first tip sign up to feel good there you go yeah. And what's number two is watch video number one. And then.

Shields it's difficult i think like putting is very individual part of the game. So to give like generic tips of course but what i see people get when it comes to putting they get really tied up in knots so like go and go and visit your pj pro get a lesson and try and try and get an idea of how you control your start line your speed and your read so look at putting us in in terms of three skills which you've got to master yeah. And technique plays a part in terms of the start line and your speed but you know look at it from a skill based thing and what are the key things you need to do to affect your start line whether it be aiming the putter better whether it be developing a better motion in terms of your stroke. And then.

Look at how well you can read greens. And we spoke about it today.

I think that's one thing that's particularly overlooked by the average golfer they don't comprehend how important that part is of course. So yeah try. And understand what your patterns are around those three skills is very difficult to do on your own um. So i'd recommend going to get a lesson one of the things that we've tried to do with our the online academy is to help people analyze those three skills. And then.

Direct relevant videos to them it's part of the process that we do online um. So it's it's a difficult one but that would be my my comment or answer to that so he's in it hit it straight at the right it's the right speed at the right line it goes in um i thought that was amazing it was very good phil thank you. So much thanks for inviting me i feel like i could ask you a million more questions i always do when i've got a guest on because i just find life certainly in your situation is. So unique and different that i feel like it's i get to see you at tournaments every now and again but asking some of the questions about how you manage your life how you manage your clients and stuff is always super interesting. So you've been very appreciative of your time yeah um i'm glad we didn't get any any questions uh blackboard by you by saying nope you can't i can't ask that i was expecting a few sort of yeah i mean i got i think i got away with it there actually well due to a part two the problem is though we'll be driving home christ i christ why aren't you asking this why aren't you asking that anyway phil thanks. For your time good luck for the rest of the tournament with your players and i look forward to uh seeing you get your next.

Player to number one in the world and win many more majors that'd be nice yeah. And then.

Everyone listening if you want your confession read out next.

Week um email us podcast rook shield dot com um if you've got a good dear rick as well email those in and write us five stars an apple or like us if you watched on youtube see you soon [Music].