EP124 - I played in The Open aged 16! (Zane Scotland Guest)

[music] hey guys welcome back to rickshaw's golf show podcast everybody i'm your host rick shields i'm here with co-host guy episode 124. we've got a fantastic guest on today.

Zayn scotland thank you. For joining us obviously you've got a hell of a history in golf well i've been around for a while no not a great thing is it um great to have you thanks. For coming up you've traveled up on train from london today.

To your kind of original birthplace manchester yeah can you not tell by my accent it's not coming through well already we spoke on as you got off the train you sound like a united fan which you are from london yeah like most of us yeah well yeah i think today.

I think today's podcast is one that we've seen before it's our kind of off podcast that we've very recently had some amazing guests. And i must admit i'm not saying cause you sat in front of me your story which i know loosely and obviously you're gonna explain to us in more depth is one that really excites me because how i mean i would class use a kind of a pg well i'm not a pj golf coach actually a golf coach which is something we talked about in the car before. But let's start with what you are. Or what you describe yourself as now zane and let's go back and tell the story because i'm fascinated um well well first and foremost i'm a golf lover i've been obsessed by golf since i was since i started when i was 11 years old uh you know chipping chipping in the back garden dragging my dad out of his pit at half five in the morning because i played nine hold before school. And it's before school before school yeah in the summer we would do that. And it's the same it's the same today.

Like on the way up here i'm i'm on on the train sitting there on my own thinking about this like kind of hand movement on the downswing that has been a good feeling over the last few days like it's the same now you know how many years in it was when you stood up in the middle of the carriageway. And you started you started to pretend impact i was right on the train with the seven iron do you love golf yeah yeah i love golf love all the aspects of it. And i think now i played competitively. For a long time which you know which was amazing you know there was lots of goods. And lots of bads as well and then.

Now you know it's almost become full circle and now i enjoy like the stories in golf and watching the top of the game and then.

Just just playing with like playing with my pals and so forth and i'm just really really fortunate to be in in just some different areas in golf now it's not just playing as much as i loved competing it's quite um it's quite stressful at times i must admit i could imagine it being ridiculously hard work playing like we've had we spoke to a few tour pros and even ex-tour pros and i must admit as much as it looks like the best life ever playing these phenomenal golf courses for ridiculous amounts of money i think unless you're in that world you can't fully relate to actually how stressful strenuous. And kind of gut-wrenching it is espec especially if you don't play well if you don't play well you you it's not just a saturday medal well i was chatting some lads in the pro shop at the weekend i was telling about how hard it is to make it which again you're going to tell us even more depth i guess. But i said to the match if we're playing four holes now. And we play for whoever buys lunch and you've got to put it to win you might be a little bit bit nervous over this let's now say we're saying the same match we're going to play. For a brand new iphone you get more nervous again now let's still playing again four holes but you're paying for your mortgage and your car and your bills that must just be intense yeah i mean if you're when you're into that you know like the private jet part of golf the top end of the golf that's a little bit different because you're playing on house money. And life's all great but the bit up to that the things you said there it it taps into. So many things all this like survival things so the the rollercoaster of emotions that you can go into in around the gulf is just it's mental like. And even when i play now and again like even now in some just some small events there are stages when you know the round's going okay. And then.

The round slips a little bit and all those thoughts kind of come dragging back and i have to sometimes remind myself go like no this is not my full-time job anymore like chill like just chill like it's you know we go again tomorrow sort of thing. But but um you know places like q school and that sort of stuff it really does looking back on it now. And also coaching that coaching some players who are on the way up. And you know trying to make it and dealing with them trying to remind them um you know that to put things into perspective but really like completely empathize with what's going on like the end of last year i went to um i went to the euro pro q school just. For a bit of fun really because i needed to get affiliated uh for some uh to the pga for some programs i'm playing in this year and it was really interesting being there. And being around some some younger players and just just you could just feel the tension even at the first stage at the final stage you know it was everyone's been dead quiet. And you can just see the nerves on them. And they're making a couple of times i had my power caddying for me he used to play and a couple of times one of the two lads would like they'll go do something you almost want to go like mate just chill chill. For a sec does it make it it's a terrible decision. But it's just it's the nerves that come into it well what year was it when we went to lumina was that 19 um it was nine maybe 18. Or 19 went to lumina final qualifying over in spain and it was it was a really tense day won it we're there. For the final day we actually picked six players to do a little mini documentary on three of them actually ended up qualifying the three of them didn't. But it was it was weirdly like eerie it was like that's the word on the range people are there the prats in the hitting balls. But nobody's really talking because everybody is. So like on edge that they have this is their big shot they have to do what they need to do they have to get into that top whatever very very small percentage. And uh it was it was it was like a weird eerie like i always felt guilty. For smiling and having a nice day in the sunshine because you're like looking at these guys and they've just got fear in their eyes but even then.

Though they do well enough to get onto the european tour that's guaranteed at every event. And some of them actually jeff winther's going to do well. And daniel gavins has but some of the guys that get on tour i mean that in itself is an incredible achievement. But then.

It's just so hard to maintain your card and make a viable career out there it's so tough yeah i mean being able to have some sort of perspective we should probably see him with someone like richard bland now you know he's kind of got going kind of knows knows the run of how it all works. And a bit of confidence but it's just that that part of i just think you want to get to the tour then.

It's like okay the first as you can you keep your cards. And so forth and then.

There's all there's always small parts there's always a level up yes. For a lot of people it's a dream to get to the tour you get to tell you like i'm not in every event now yeah. And then.

You get into the point where you keep your car for the first year and now you're like well but then.

Those guys ahead of me they're in wgcs or they're winners there's always another level there's always that little piece that tells you like by the way you're not good enough yet you're not good enough yeah it's even like was it john rahm that quite recently said that obviously at the time this was uh pre-recorded he said this before last week he was number one in the world obviously scottish shetland's just taken over that mantle. But he said like he doesn't feel like he's gonna complete golf until he got overtakes like jack nicholas's major records well that's awesome it's like the tigers the same yeah yeah i bet tiger's not happy you're actually a little bit like tiger i'm a little bit like only the only person that's ever really truly happy is jack nicholas. And he's taking all them seconds like 20 odd seconds crazy so little brief things that you've obviously done you've played in the open championship at the age of 16. 16 which is just i need to hear this story because aren't you the youngest player that's ever gone through qualifying to get into the open yes yeah young to go through the qualifiers he did regional qualifying the regionals yeah. And then.

Final qualifying and then.

Playing the opening at carnostic in 99. yeah kind of nasty yeah explain obviously i you were off plus two at the time i believe. So you were an elite kind of junior well you were a junior golfer how did that come about was it on a whim do you think i'm going to enter this year how did you get to playing in the open well it wasn't actually i wasn't thinking about that too much to be honest with you my coach at the time a guy called scott cranfield he suggested at the beginning of that year now you're now you're scratch because i've got scratch at the beginning you should do open qualifying it wasn't even on my radar i didn't even know that's how it worked it was just. For you at that time it was just another event to play in because you're probably playing loads of events yeah you know i was a kid you just like i'm more worried about playing junior medal tomorrow i've only telling me something in six months you know this is a long time how are you going to spend your two's money yeah this weekend have i got a brand new belata to you. So yes yeah that sort of thing um. And it just kind of yeah i was playing quite well that summer. And then.

When it came around i guess a little bit of naivety would have come in i went to the first stage and um i took my power who's going to carry. For me so i was 16. he was 14.. And we arrived at rumford golf club and we go into the pro shop and bought bought a um a course planner for the club one went round to the office and they gave you like the fancy one don't they so i given that other call pad to my pal went into the office got the fancy course planner which is obviously in black. And white but it's got all the numbers really details more numbers than you can ever imagine you ever going to need. And i come out i was just looking at this thing going this is unbelievable this this is. So good and um so i go to show my power mikey look at this look how good it is he looks at it. And he gets his one next.

To it which is in color it has like the 150 post. And you know one seven five and he just goes oh that's rubbish not even in color you know oh my god and then.

Then.

There was someone there to give you golf balls you know you get your dozen. Or two golf balls in the glove music and there's pros around and as a kid you're just like this is the biggest thing i mean at that time did you feel like you were a competitor is it hard to kind of rewind to that point did you feel like you deserved to be competing. Or did you actually feel like a kid that was almost spectating um i guess it was a yeah it i hadn't i think before i got there i hadn't really thought about too much because you don't do when you're a kid then.

When i arrived i was a bit like oh there's a pros here you know like club pros. And you know like it just kind of named you a load of old men yeah literally like load of old blokes. And whatever um and then.

Someone was giving you stuff like i was like this literally felt like i was a tall player at this point now you're going this is this is good life isn't it this is this is nice. And um yeah. And i was i was pretty nervous um i think. And i probably shot one under par and i actually didn't actually get like i didn't actually qualify on the day so i got like a alternate spot okay reserve a reserve spot. And um i think i was it was probably 30 second reserve. So i'm walking away from there thinking it was it wasn't a playoff i earned the spot um. And then.

Kind of left there thinking oh that will probably won't get in listen to that i know everyone's like oh no that would definitely get in. And then.

One of my other powers he had qualified a different course and they were. And him and his material were going up to scotland driving up. And they said look. And i was thinking when i get in when i'm not get in i said look just we're going jump in the car. And we'll have a you know come up play practice where we are. And see if you get in so i was like yeah fine. So you know i'm just there just with with the boys you know just you know doing a road trip to scotland and um i was friends with a a guy from my club back home this girl called michael lund who went on he did actually go on to be the captain of the rna. But he worked for the rna at the time and he happened he happened to be the delegate at the course that i was that my power was out. So i was doing practice rounds there had a couple of nice days. And then.

7 30 the night before so in those days the qualifying used to be sunday and monday before the open so the irish open would finish did it really yeah. And then.

Yeah. And that's and then.

I actually never realized that yeah. So the rhombus finished on a saturday then.

They would know who's in and out so basically a bunch of calls go out saturday night to say you're in the next.

Day so i was like on the 16th hole. So like zayn you're in and you're here the place i'd actually been practicing for a couple of days which at the time i was like oh that's cool. But now i think yeah he probably he probably you know sorted that out that i got that venue yeah did it maybe maybe not i would never know unfortunately passed away now oh no. And um yeah. So then.

Yes the next.

Next.

Thing i knew i was on the you know on the t at now final qualifying. And i was playing with um sergio garcia who won the euro chopin. So i took his spot which meant i got to play with robert allenby so i had quite a good quite good job you actually took sergio spot basically yeah yes class literally took his spot. So then.

That got me with robert robert imagine if he hadn't changed the name on the t from spain sergio garcia and you turn up i know fellas it's only me right so then.

This is the next.

Part i'm not super nervous i'm playing robert andy who i've watched on television get on the first tee. And you know there's a bunch of people watching and i skyped my first t-shirt natural property just kind of short right at the fairway i just i was mad nervous. And then.

On about the third hole he comes over and he says look you got to stop walking on my throw line it's getting a bit annoying now and i was just thinking yeah i'm killing i'm thinking i don't have a clue what he's doing what does he say like he wants to go. And punch him i'm just like i'm just going to leave you to this like. And then.

The other playing partner he came across and i kind of knew him a little bit because he had met him before somewhere he was like he was a rep. For a shaft company and he went over and he's like right robert don't you try and pull that you know that sh with me is that all happening like third. Or four farewells oh my god and then.

On the fifth hole fifth or sixth i laid up on the par five i kind of like kind of semi-shanked a wedge shot and it went right at the green and that and at that point all the pressure went out i thought well i can't get any worse than this and from that point i literally did not put a foot wrong like chipped. And putted and then.

I just played mustard for the next.

Two rounds wow there's 36 holes 36 holes displayed yeah played really well i listened to a um a bob rotella putting out of your mind cassette oh yeah on the way up yeah you like turn it over yeah the other side. And i just that was in my head. And i just hold everything i just didn't put a foot wrong and um yeah in those days it was probably eight spots got in um i think i was third. Or fourth wow in the qualifying but you know just and and paul rub again so he he uh uh he wasn't very popular to say the least because he had a lot of people walking around he was very rude to it was rude to some people walking around hey yeah like people moving. And oh they stopped the diva yeah it was being a bit of a diva. And he left he actually left the course in a strop and as it turned out he actually got into a playoff but he'd already gone to oh my word he already went to the airport yeah he was a minus three three on the played off yeah what what state that was. So what did you realize like going down the like the the 18 total 36 hole that you had a chance. Or did it not not notice you got in like because sure that was been nerve-wracking yeah you know you like you know like you're right there in the mix. So the first round i was maybe four under. So i knew i was in the frame. And the next.

Day you're kind of going out thinking like just not going to mess up here you know i've got to keep going. And then.

You kind of know because there's more and more people coming out to watch so i didn't know the exact number but you're like i'm under par here this is probably looking pretty good. And i think i hold a um i gotta plug bunker shot on about the fifteenth. And hold it at the pod bunker shirt oh my gosh at that point i was thinking like right this is i've gotta hold on here this is this is gonna be it. And do you remember a lot of this at 16 yeah why is it really etched into your mind i remember bits of it like i remember the best first t-shirt yeah i remember the semi-truck remember the whole bunker shot i remember the puck going in the last hole wow i actually i had a blade the two iron i remember hitting two iron off the 18th. And he's coming straight out of the middle but like like now i'm thinking about that yeah why did you do it yeah that was brave that was a sixteen-year-old yeah. And were you quite an old 16 year old um like did you have an old head on you. Or were you i think i feel like me at 16 i just wouldn't have been in that much in a bizarre way i think that almost like they said the naivety can help yeah in some regards i've been turning up in my burberry hat. And my jaylin the berg stripe strike pants and my white belt and my sweatpants shot like 93. like i would have i i wouldn't have 16 i don't think i would have been in the right headspace i think i was i'd played well. For the few weeks up to it so so the week before uh may a week maybe two weekends before i'd want a junior open to which i won like um this is quite funny actually. So i had one like two wedges like for winning it so like they were straight in the bag. And i had this old driver which i'd cut down which had a rattle and because i cut it down it was like really light it didn't go properly. So i was then..

So then.

I was teeing off mainly with a 3-wood which i'd swapped with my mate like just before literally before a junior medal the month before. And it was a regular shaft. And it was really whippy. But i figured out if you swung it really slow it would just like kind of kick and go off like a rocket and then.

I was borrowing my dad's clubs because my ones are too whippy. And my putter i swapped a counter game with one of my other powers i was literally playing the whole like bag everything you've just said then.

Reminds certainly me of when i was like 100 the swapping clubs swapping clubs on it yeah like you that's what i used to swap. So often it was ridiculous with putters. Or drivers i'm stopping some 360s for a cobra 5 hybrid one it was just which way around that go. So i got the hybrid all right yeah the shoes were too small. So i found a little hybrid again it was regular it was too soft. But you swung it a certain way it worked is it funny like as a kid. Or or any golf event really you've played well you've worn yet you win golf clubs yeah yeah i have a weird concert i remember once the longest drive comp won a driver which i thought was bizarre yeah don't get that yeah. But what else can you give really that substantial like maybe a golf bag. Or yeah i don't know i've always thought golf prizes are strange because typically if you've won it you've played well. And you end up winning something that might interfere you can't beat just pro-v ones dozens upon dozens of balls yeah like some guy walking out with a golf bag. Or a driver looks like he's won more than a guy with three boxes of balls even though the value actually might be more with the buttons that's crazy after you went to carnoustie yeah. So that's that's it so you play sunday monday and then.

Um you know then.

We went to when carnosine monday night and we had also nowhere to stay so you know i would just sit in there you know with more of my powers probably playing a game boy or something like that well my dad was like probably going going out of his mind trying to find somewhere. For us to stay and was he up in scotland with you he drove up after the good first round because he probably didn't really yeah yeah yeah he drove out through the night yeah. So um yeah. So he drove up so that was cool. And uh yeah. And tuesday and tuesday you're you're on the range so you go from from literally a junior open to like you know on the ranging dan clark's there greg norman's like right behind me and it was just you know i'm just there hitting. But in a weird way then.

My dad come over going like this is amazing. But i'm just like going like we're talking about because i'm thinking i've watched golf i've watched these guys like that it's like there's great normally i'm like yeah i'm thinking like i watch him on telly that i'm i'm just happy that i've got his brand new pro vs to come. And hit like off this tight surf that's why i'm interested in that and then.

Uh yeah then.

You're into the whole like all of a sudden now getting given clubs. And do you want to come on the van. And get like six pairs of shoes and you need a golf bag all that sort of stuff and then.

At some point you're like oh i probably need to go and play a practice around that course over there but you're so as a kid just thinking what i can talk on there. And just take stuff they're like yeah what do you need like i'd like a new driver okay should we make you two then.

Like yeah all right i owe my mate i almost made a putter you've got to get 33 inch footage i've got another mate who's left-handed can i get a left-handed wedge well what what was a lot of media sniffing around. And stuff then.

Because again it's a 16 year old is qualified that must have been very very unusual i said the youngest ever yeah there was actually um there was because i kind of did an interview straight away like the day that i qualified. And you know all that sort of stuff and then.

Then.

Skye did some stuff. So to like you know um right we're gonna film you putting your crabs in the car and driving off that sort of stuff waving out the window like like you wave out the window when you drive away from the golf club all that sort of stuff yeah exactly like the queen yeah. So there was quite a bit. But again you know being quite like i almost well i think when i got there i think because i'd like watched it. And go and i'd love watching the pj tour and so forth in your head you're thinking and also at 14 i made that decision i was like i'm going to be a golfer yeah. And there was no there's no other reason to that we all know now there's a million reasons. But when you're 14 you don't realize that any reason why you shouldn't be able to do anything. So i kind of like i guess my head may be bought into it anyway so when it came along i was like yeah it's fine i wasn't very good at it obviously um not very good now still. But you know it was you were good enough you were pretty good it was like yeah um did you have like did you have like at that point you're in the open you're 16 did you have did you have like managers coming sniffing around did you have like sponsors did did suddenly you get like a you know a big wig in a suit going hey zayn nice to meet you mr whoever let's sign you up oh i think my dad was kind of like filled in a few there were a few obviously like the imgs. And so there were a few management managers that had come to chat to us apparently the guy looked after tiger at nike come. And walked a few holes that sort of stuff but i mean my dad was like he was like scary he loved all that sort of stuff that's right he's good at that sort of stuff. So he so he was entertaining the chats yeah he was loving all that that bit of it. And he was do yeah he was doing that. And i was just there playing golf i didn't know half i get told stuff by my my my mum my dad. And my sister now about that week i was like i did it i didn't have a clue oh my god you know i think even on the morning that i was playing they still had to get me out of bed i still didn't get out of bed about 11 o'clock. Or something like that i was just just i was always pretty laid back. And i just kind of took it all with weirdly took it in my stride and i wondered about now i think what was it like should have been that bounce off something did you think you would have done it different now looking back um slightly i got i got to play again in 2010 by this point i was a professional golf. And it was a very i was determined to make it a very different experience uh. For that one okay because the first time around you just really just now zac is great. And like you're an amateur 16. no pressure who did you play with can you remember i played with um i played with a guy called i think it was lee lee thompson who was like west west. And then.

Uh warren bennett but in the practice rounds i played with uh pear or johansson if you remember him i do yeah um play if he holds a partner phil price um yeah just oh that was that was cool just to play the practice around those guys. And chat to them and you know i remember like pear was giving me you give me little tips on every hole like our links go if you've got make sure you switch off. And switch on you know when you go from left right wind to right to left wins that sort of stuff um yeah it's it's it's just a mayhem it's a mayhem week there's just there's probably. So many little stories i could go into did you have ambitions. For that week then.

Or we just kind of like you said did you start thinking i wanted to cut. Or i want to win this or we're just literally just enjoying every moment yeah honestly i didn't know yeah i just enjoyed every moment right all my mates came up you know some of them stayed in the tent you know some of them like end up being in our house. And we stayed there now just magic really going down the in the first round oh i turned it off at four o'clock in the first round. And i've seen like vijay's thing that shot like 83 marco mira he would defend the champion he's like 18 months i knew it was like this is not like a normal uh pro event i don't know it was. But i was still i was about i don't know maybe four. Or five over going down the ninth hole i'd heard that sergio started like poorly. And i'm thinking oh this is bad you know like five of the power already you know it could be embarrassing i went over to the gallery because my mate's there. And i said to him what did sergio shoot. And when he shot 89. and i just went like the president actually went out of my body i was like i'm going to beat that 89 yeah in the opening round yeah. And it was he won the previous week oh my god yeah it was brutal it was brutal. But you know i was just cruising around i'm 16 years old yeah whatever that's amazing yeah. So then.

Fast forward so when did you actually turn pro from that. So you're 16 you just played in the open was it a few years later then.

You turned pro yes i turned pro probably was 20. okay 20. Or 21 yeah. So so then.

Yeah i kind of went back. And did the damage stuff you know i played. For england and played for gb and i played all the amateur events and you know kind of got you know kind of got better and you know obviously taller and a bit stronger and that sort of stuff and then.

When it dealt with the other stuff yeah then.

I turned progress 20 i had a car crash just before i turned pro oh god um. And i i did about i did turn. For about three months after that but probably wasn't quite ready really was it bad car crash yeah just like you know someone was turning right into my road you know she was looking left. But turning right and you know anyway so that was i did my neck in. So the first couple of years of being a pro i didn't really have like a full run it was always like right don't play four months we do all the treatments. So forth then.

We try and play which when you're playing at that level cannot get away that cannot get away with it so it was i had some profile to get some invites. But i never really i didn't really press on with them and it was it was difficult i went. And i went down played the asian tour for a little while but i had to come back because my neck was like um. So i got my card there i had to come back my neck was playing up. And then.

Then.

I just kind of like i'd finally after about four years of being professional it was you know it was tough really from being like finding everything really easy to then.

All of a sudden like find everything really really difficult. And you ask yourself loads of questions you think it's you think it's you you think oh what's wrong with me. But i look back i was like i wasn't read i couldn't really do it like practice. Or put in the time you need to to be at that level and you get found out quickly at that level and then.

I found the treatment which made my neck better and then.

Re and then.

I just i was playing a bit of euro pro. And challenge tour and um i went across to do the french open qualifying which i wasn't going to go to um my dad had talked me into it because one of my powers was driving from germany across to france um. And he said i said look i know you said you're tired. But you got a week off you might as well go and do the qualifying. And then.

You know then.

You come home after that so i went down there and we got we got lost we got lost like driving overnight to this golf course we couldn't find a hotel so we had to drive basically we thought we'd just find the airport because there'd be a hotel at the airport so then.

We're still like two hours away from the venue haven't had no practice round. And it was 36 holes we had to get up early we literally arrived like 15 20 minutes before tee off qualifying. For the french open i love all these little stories like this i went into the pro shop to buy a t-shirt because more two churchill you know smelly from the week before and uh i had about i had time to hit probably eight balls before before these two rounds of qualifying for the french open and after about three balls i just thought of like a a drill that john jacobs had given to me um probably like nearly a year previous just suddenly popped in my head i thought i'll just try that i hit a lovely shot and i thought i'd do it again. And didn't have one again what about the driver driver out and just hit like i hit like four or five ball just really on a piece of string i was like well i've got to go now on the tee. And and it was the weirdest thing i just i had probably 36 of the best holes best golf i've played just from start from first to last. And then.

Wonderful about six shots just just weirdly enough just popped into my head completely randomly off of a back of no sleep like a red ball on the way to the tee. And um then.

That got that got me into the uh into the french open and i mean my mom was that where was that played that was at golfer national oh really. So what year was this 2007. yeah 2007.. And literally yeah my mom lent me some money to go you know to to go to um to uh my mom led me 500 quid to go to the challenge a week the week before then.

I qualified then.

One of my dad's mates we play i played the random pro am he you know he's an electrician he he gave me 600 quid i'll get make sure to get yourself a proper caddy. So like luckily through scott um scott cranfield he knew phil price so he was always had calisthenics a week off. So yeah you can use him. For a week and then.

Um yeah just kind of went into the french open all like completely like this is great you know i remember looking down the list thinking right if you make the cut you know you get like 7 000 euros which at that time was like i'll take that of course. And then.

I was playing quite well i took my john jacobs like little tip basically do you remember what it was yeah it was um yeah let's go i'll share with you um in a sec yeah um yeah. And uh yeah i played i made the cut. And then.

You're just like well i've made the cut yeah you know i've i'm i'm yeah at that point you feel like you're playing well that's it you you've yeah you're already seven grand you're definitely gonna make seven grand exactly. And then.

Kind of cruising on and playing graham with graham storm and one behind with him with about six to play one one behind the lead so yeah. So he had i didn't know at the time but i knew we were up there. And then.

He basically parred in because the gulf international was really difficult i didn't i didn't do too much wrong. But dropped a couple of shots in the way was it quite new then.

Because that didn't get built. For the ryder cup or not was it no models it was been there. For a while i had it right okay as i understand it um it's not that old is it. But it was no i thought it had been built just. For the ryder cup to be honest right yeah it's been there. For quite a while so then.

He parred in and won the tournament so i was literally shaking the hand of the winner oh my god at a main european tour event really. So that was uh i burged a couple of holes dropped back to that 10th. But from where i'd been this is now amazing now i had a you know uh he made proper check yeah i've made that it was about seventy thousand euro. And i was thinking all of a sudden i've gone from borrowing five hundred quid my mum that's some ridiculous like a seventy thousand euro cheque what does she have interest yeah uh yeah 2007. yeah off the back of nothing really then.

I was at the time a management company img they you know having not really heard from him. For ages because you don't play very well don't hear from him also walk off the back of the 18th green he's like yeah by the way you're in next.

Week. And that that kind of that juggernaut picks up and i went to the deutsche bank um got into that and i was actually leading after two rounds. And then.

Um you know just went from those periods but i couldn't put a foot wrong third round i was six under through five holes then.

I had a putt to go seven under through six three putted. But anyway but then.

Again it just got me on to the next.

Week that got me into the next.

Week and um yeah just just you go through times in golf where every putt lips out every cut you could get close to you missed by a shot i just went through a period where every part that was on the lip fell in top ten every cut i got near two i made you know it was just i just got on that run like i went to russia um i was one outside the cut line playing the last hole. And i was thinking that's gonna be the first cut i missed because i think i played like maybe three. Or four minutes until then.

And then.

I hold my hold my shot from the fairway i was just like you know you're just thinking i just can't yeah you can't start a moment yeah you can't not not make the call you made some sick i'm just looking now you made some serious cuts that yeah yeah ridiculous that's why that's why he's buying all this nft's now how's he retirement i'm still living off there. So one two three what's this tip then.

While he's counting your wins up but yeah. So i was like about 14 cuts in a row yeah it was just just yeah just got on a run yeah i've been on the other side of it. So like i'll happily relive those yeah that part yeah it's like you can hear about all the wins can't you from someone goes to the casino we never hear about the losers exactly. So he came to an opening at a driving range and he couldn't he couldn't really see very much so he said to me like he was been getting yeah he was old. So i had a a stalled out for him he said you just tell me what the ball is doing i watch you swing you turn what the ball is doing. So i was um i was i was over drawing it yeah. And so i hit a few of those and he said to me right um start with the club back into the inside. So about a foot behind the ball and to the inside yeah now i'll swing inside. And then.

And then.

Basically swing over it he left hip and hit a fade so just like it put me in a big drawer position so take it on back on the inside come over the top yeah. And basically hit a fade so it was like just a massive example start inside. And then.

Swing inside and then.

You have to then.

Like really turn your left hip out the way so you can then.

Hit a face i hit about two. Or three of those and he said what would that one do what that one do yep that faded right now i hit a number one. And obviously it just the exaggeration broke the feel of like me going outside. And looping about under yeah. And i i i pretty much played off that field for like a year and a half and um yeah just had it on a piece of string. But really weirdly didn't implement it straight away you implemented it like a year and a bit after which happens right like i said i do stuff now like i had i've had online lessons from like five years ago. And i'll re-watch the video and i'll go i completely didn't hear that the first time that yeah hasn't told me that you know just it's it. And you know as much as even coaching now completely not exempt from the fact of like you go into a lesson with what you think you want. Or want to get out of it and you don't necessarily take in what the expert you paid really good money to tell you yeah yeah. But that's fine but can we just do what i want to do yeah yeah you can be a bit blinkered i think it's just change is hard as well sometimes i've got problems with my golf swing i don't need to change i kind of know roughly what to do. But it's difficult and they almost i want to fix it but i don't want to put in the effort's the hardest bit so so obviously you were then.

European tour european tour player yeah were you sponsored this time did you have a club deal yeah. So i'd been with callaway um since i was a kid really since i was about probably 17. Or 18. so that just kind of kicked in i was already using the clubs. And they had like a system where you know if you're this rank of player you you you go straight into that contract and then.

Yeah. And then.

You know img kind of got me a couple of um you know corporate sponsors and so forth but yeah. But you know what though it was. So different then.

I had i could never have told you at any point how much i would have had in my bank account for instance i wasn't i just thought it was. So much it was honestly just about playing golf yeah like i wasn't interested in like you are interested. But i wasn't like that wasn't the driving force i was still like you know i was still living home with my mum sort of thing like i wasn't that fussed about like moving out cause i was thinking i'm on tour now that's yeah that's fine sort of wanted to do the life i live now yeah exactly. And it's weird from from having um from doing well then.

To then.

Really struggling at different times like i was just still my life's the same still like still play golf every day like in the back of my mind that's always been the of a safety net really like whatever happens i'll still be able to play golf. So i think. So when you're going through that time. And stuff as well and obviously you saying you're not too bothered about the money in the bank you just wanted to play golf and you wanted to win tournaments and stuff like when you're out on tour as well is it hard to like think about settling down at any point. Or having you know getting married or having kids or is that is that just a thought that's never in your mind when you're out on tour is it yeah i guess you have to be quite self-centered yeah it hadn't really crossed my mind at all really like yeah that's that's it everything revolves around you playing golf yeah like almost you know you it's actually probably not very good. For your social skills because you just think that if i play good golf the rest of the world works. But in the time of getting when i got injured and wasn't had to play for long periods of time which probably as a person probably good for me because all of a sudden you have to like get out of your box of everyone just doing things for you and you can just get by because you've got at golf. And people want to come and talk to you you have to like actually engage some sort of socials yeah yeah sort of thing. So that was probably. So being injured for a long period of time probably helped that side i think. So because i would never have got that because i kind of went from you know having some profile from playing in the open at 16. so then.

Also i was just a golfer yeah. And and and everything just happened off the back of that so i didn't have to like didn't have to try it really the other stuff because i wasn't bothered about that because all i bothered about was playing golf like what what was my golf game doing. So yeah that probably in a weird way probably helped that side of things. But you know happily of of um not gonna injure him you know be like flying around in private jets now and it would be a millionaire that sort but yeah. But you know good comes from those situations what was the highest world ranking you got to um i'm not sure how high i got right probably around 200. Or so okay something like that when you're playing because you hear a lot of players two three nine i think when you see a lot of players saying that like sometimes they don't really care about world ranking was it something that was on your mind. Or i know it gets you into certain events but it was anything that you was like i desperately want to break into the top 200 150 yeah you know what i didn't know in two years after that. So what my world ranking was is that right yeah i guess i was probably only ever interested in really like being at top 50. yeah until i was at that point i wasn't that bothered. And i wasn't i'm not really like a number watcher like i wouldn't think like this is where i am this is where i'm gonna go i never really planned anything out in hindsight i would probably make be a bit more now being the coach be a bit more goal driven. And this by this uh how we're gonna get there that sort of stuff is that if i actually give to your students now yeah there's. So many different tours now so now i said look. And everyone gets wrapped up and now if you win this you get into this tournament and you get don't worry about that just keep playing good goals yes your world ranking will take you to where you want to go yeah like that's you get. So wrapped up in all the other stuff well do you find it hard then.

When you're like well suppose it's got benefits as well when you're coaching people now. And you've been there and done it and you've experienced the highs and less of the lows when you're coach people can you see in their ability that you think that they're not going to do it. Or they are how do you kind of approach that. Or just coach people and then.

They take care of the golf themselves or do you give them advice. Or how does it really work yeah you do look at some players. And sometimes you can't think yeah they've got something you know be like if unless something outside of golf really detracts them i'll be amazed if this person didn't get to a really high level. And there's others come in you think haven't they've not got it to get to the higher level. But you know what they're gonna they're gonna do it regardless. And if i have a and it's the same amount of effort and focus if someone's going to make say 20 million. And you can help them make 25 over their career that's that's kind of my job. And it's the same if you think this person my own career earnings are 20 grand if i can turn that into 30 grand. For them then.

That's a success in itself because part of as much of people want to get to the top of the game part of just chasing the dreamers it's something you don't get to do forever. So if you can do it. For a short time and you know it doesn't take you into a really bad spot financially then.

You know then.

You've got to give it a go yeah that's bringing something. And you know what i think playing good golf. And whatever level whether you're whether you're playing with your powers you just want to get better at golf or you're at the top of the game like it's exactly the same feeling yeah well exactly the same thing when we spoke to faldo we said it takes obviously technical strength physical strength. And mental strength and he says that to get to the highest level you've got to have all three like there's no questions you can't you can't be weak in any area yeah i reckon there are a lot of golfers you mentioned that have the technical strength the physical strength. But the mental strength is really hard to be a winner yeah you have to really push yourself up next.

It's even the mental strength off the course because you're thinking about like walking down like again trying to make a cut walking down the 18th fairway you've got to hold a pot. But like you said being like a random airport at kazakhstan airport. And you've missed a cut and you've got to then.

Go fly to a hotel yeah i mean that was an event you did not want to miss the car you couldn't get out there on a friday night you had to wait to the sunday that was oh that was that really is that a good one yeah. But like it just must be again i know we said it's a lot i'm almost obsessed over it. But the life that these guys middle of the park live it's not what people think. And but i suppose the beauty of it is the next.

Week it was a lottery next.

Week could be the week yeah. And these guys have to have some level of belief and and you your life could change in you know 36 holes at 72 holes so when did you start to transition out of playing full-time. And and doing kind of what you do now because obviously you you have you wear quite a few hats now don't you obviously coaching yeah tv presented yeah still a little bit of playing you mentioned earlier nft entrepreneur which you've just taught us a little bit about. And i'm getting very excited about ft's um when did this start to transition what was the journey between you know you playing every week without question on the european tour as it was known then.

To then.

It was it more of a conscious effort yourself was it injuries. Or what were you kind of forced into it because you didn't make as much money. Or whatever it was yeah um probably a little bit of all the above really um. So initially i had a i started to have a back injury so i was kind of going back into what i had with my neck well i wasn't i wasn't able to do what you need to do to be able to compete full time at the top level. So that was kind of i was kind of creeping in. And was this linked to the car crash at all no nothing to do with it just just wear. And tear it come from my generation we just didn't look after our bodies as well we didn't know that that's what we had to do you know long-haul flights getting off not just you know i take responsibility. For that it didn't look after my body well enough for that amount of time and then.

Um i had in when i had my card i kind of went down this journey of like had a bad stretch and i wanted to work out why like because it was a technical issue um. And so i kind of switched coaches a couple of times and then.

I i kind of ended up kind of stumbling across like a more red mac o'grady golf coach which you know anyone who's into the golf swing would know yeah yeah. And i went to a couple of his golf schools um which was like mind-blowing really at the time in hindsight as a player i should never have gone because it's just way too much information. And it probably took me about it took me about six years to kind of get like a little bit of like i kind of understand what he's talking about now it took a long time to kind of settle in my brain and so i would be i was at a minotaur event just filming my swing like i would always do by this point i never felt like it wasn't interesting goal swing. Or when i played well probably telling me something that and um yeah one there was a young lad there i was kind of my pal. And i josh like we would like you know i'd help look at your swing and so forth now and then.

Um but then.

Let's have a look uh todd had come on todd clements and he went yeah we look at muslin it was an amateur maybe like 1500 in the world. And i was like yeah because you felt like you had some technical knowledge at this point yeah yeah exactly yeah because i kind of had like a bit of a baseline that i was looking at it from. And i think he just saw me doing it. And i was like well i'll give him my opinion. And i gave him i gave my opinion then.

He he just happened to take that and he was already a really good player just pointing him in the right direction. And he paid really well for like six weeks in a row um and he just went pounding out the amateur world rankings and he went from like 1400 up to like inside the top 500 like 250 or something like that then.

We came home that winter and we played around the golf with my power josh and uh and todd and unbeknownst to them in the first nine holes they both approached me and said that i quite enjoyed that stuff would you do it full time they both approached you kind of individually exactly in a three ball. And um and in my head i was thinking i'll probably start a golf club when i'm like 50. yeah yeah yeah. And now i'm like early 30s or uh yeah mid early 30s. And he's and there i'm thinking oh yeah maybe i'll just help these guys out. And next.

Thing i knew because they did well you know you know todd's gotta mate he went oh can you have a look at mastering can you have a look at my swing. And it just like just snowballed and next.

Thing it was like i've got like a full-on like from like squad of like good players. And and youngsters really so how did it make you feel when todd started to do well um yeah it's completely different like it's completely different feeling to yourself doing well i mean yeah he started to smash it really. And he he was such a good talent anyway he just needed like really like just going that direction. And it is. And he won the he won the english amateur um at the berkshire and that was like a real big moment because he had like he we were sat um on the terrace afterwards. And the english amateur was massive. And i was like yeah it's a huge trophy. And i was like add this to the collection he went i've never won anything before yeah he run like little tupperware's never one of you know this before. But i just i think because my amateur career was like from a kid like this is what you do you want everything yeah it feels that way you get better as you get older you get further away from when it actually happened um yeah. And then.

He just he just repressed on from that point really and did you have like mixed emotions about him doing well though because as a player because were you competing him at this time. Or not were you on completely different um i played we would play alongside each other on the mena tour like how did you feel like you've helped him do really well like you've helped him beat you effectively it was all right i think he was an amateur. So he wasn't taking money it was only when he turned through um no. But it was good it was actually it was actually really nice. For me because because it kind of compact it got took me away from all those all those dark like you've had a good or a bad day yeah. But then.

You like finished you're like okay. But how are they done if he did well. Or if the other players did well it's kind of like okay well that's another you know just compartmentalized a little bit easier to deal with i suppose yeah the worst time is if you all come like bottom three yeah there's nothing there struggling yeah also. So like almost accidentally or what would you would you almost compare it simmers like robert rock because he's kind of got obviously set up school he started to coach some of his other colleagues as such um and you kind of went down that route and now and now you have a stable of how many students would you say top quality students like like now um you kind of have a different one you have people come every week and then.

In and out really like now probably have like elite players probably um across josh and i probably look after about maybe 15 to 20 i suppose these are a mixture of really good amateurs good amateurs pros yeah male female where's like your highest rank pro at the moment um. So i still do i still do all uh performance stuff with todd um probably the last year. Or so probably unless it's into the covert time so now it's kind of out like now i've kind of moved into a situation where i don't travel quite as much of course now i've like um actually found that actually dealing with the the players on the way up like that really suits me and now i'm completely comfortable with like when someone gets to the tour they want someone out on tour right yeah that's just kind of the way it goes like a night walker yeah exactly liam james. And so forth so like for instance like or toby true we helped toby tree get to the tour yeah. And then.

It was going really well. But you could just tell he's just like i just want someone who's just going to watch me hit balls. For four hours do you win the silver medal. Or they do well in the open toby they were in the open yeah um. So like um unless i was thinking i just don't want to do that i think i haven't got that. So i'm like now get to a point i'm more than comfortable to like do the bit all the bit up to it that's that sort of part of it. But going out on tour full time you know i can't see that. For quite a while now maybe obviously your son grows up and then.

I'm guessing it's nice now yeah well i'm guessing it's nice now because obviously you probably see him quite a lot. And if you were traveling a lot you wouldn't do i guess yeah yeah you start to have a family travel travel becomes a lot harder it does. And also now i just love the fact that like because i get to like talk about golf with the commentary still get to play golf get to coach it get around be there and different people i really love each piece of what i do. And it's like because i think if i was like churning all day long which i highly respect people that they do i wouldn't enjoy lessons quite as much yeah variety i guess i haven't. Yet i like i really like every part of it it's just i just sometimes i wake up just thinking like this is amazing really oh. And people say to me would you go on back out on tour full time and i'm like yeah if i was at sawgrass being in part of the private jet crew that's one way of doing it about anything other than that i'd much prefer doing what i did was was there a point. And then.

Obviously you started off saying you love golf and you can tell by your passion you do. And rightly so with the career you've got but was there ever a point where he fell out of love with golf when times weren't as good. Or was that love. For it always there i don't think i've ever fallen out i think when i wasn't playing i i think i probably went through a couple of months. But i thought you know what i'm actually just gonna distance myself from gold because it was quite tough that i wasn't able to play because i was injured. But around that i've like yeah just always obsessed by it really just loved it i think it's unique how you play. So much as well a lot of coaches typically don't play as much because either they want to get away from the golf course on the days off whatever but the fact that you still play so much as well does that help you with your coaching do you feel like because you still got your hand in yeah i think it does because like i i think it's really important. For coaches to play golf just because and i think i understand that some coach will feel there's a there's like a expectation. Or a pressure on playing and what what you would shoot because i had it at the beginning when i had not played so much i would do more. And more coaching i'll go to an event thinking if i play badly are they going to disrespect they're going lessons will all cancel lose respect. And so forth because i'm literally playing in the same tournament some of those i'm i'm coaching but you know what you realize after a while no one cares they're. So into themselves their own game they don't really care and also you just get more comfortable that they understand that your role as a coach is different from being a player. And um yeah i think it's really important to just to keep playing just to almost understand how difficult it is yeah to be able to empathize to be able to like still go through the like me on the way up here thinking about a little move i'm working on like just to like live that it's quite easy to say to somebody look at all the the figures. And numbers you just do this. And this and uh it will. And your game will improve yeah like yeah. But when i'm a bit nervous and the wind's at the left like i can't really do that what can i do yeah. So yeah question i've got a question. For both of you actually quickly so the pj now uh since the world handicap system you can turn pro off. Or do pjf6 which is obviously still a good level of golf. But what do you both think about i know they said people don't care too much. But how good at golf does a golf coach have to be. Or does it have literally no relevance you come in first rick i think there needs to be a level of standard yeah. So when i did the pga there was there was it had to be a four. Or less i didn't i actually didn't know i'd gone up to six to be honest with you and we used to have to do a playing ability test. And the playing ability test was on paper fairly straightforward if you you've do you know what they're playing abilities there's two rounds of golf. And you've got to shoot on the 15 over click sounds yeah which does sound a lot. But it's kind of like a weird like normally when you play golf certainly me growing up and i was as i was kind of in amateur game you're trying to score the best score you can possibly score right well this time now you're putting a position where as long as you've beat 15 over you're good yeah. And it was dead weird like i've never hit. So many hybrids off of t i remember playing i just hit hybrids everywhere because it and i think that i'm not saying it was phenomenal golf. And i and i obviously i qualified and got in but i felt like it was everyone was there you could tell it kind of somewhat weeded out some of the guys who really couldn't actually play golf to be honest with you. But i don't also think that's the only route of coaching now i think to be a pga pro. And to coach that's one route but i think there are other ways now to become a reputable coach like you say obviously being a next.

Tour player you're now a coach i think if you've got really good knowledge. And understanding you can still be a great coach like would i go. And have a lesson with butch hardman absolutely of course i would obviously he's done it and he's been there done that but he might go out and not be able to break 90 now but that's okay let's have a lesson with it more there'll be other examples of that personally i think as long as you've got a really good understanding. And you can play to a decent enough level it's more your knowledge i find going back to your point a minute ago. And i'll get zayn's answer on that in a second i remember when i was coaching full-time at trafford. And proper turnout lessons a hundred percent went through a spell maybe about two or three years where i hardly played golf i hardly played golf and i was coaching coaching coaching indoor range. And it was only when i started to play more golf i thought oh crap like there's a lot of things i've overlooked here because because at the time i was just a driving ranger golf coach. And that's all i could that sort of knew yeah where once started playing golf oh no let's not worry about hitting a driver on launch monitor with this much spin this much launch let's focus on that in between club let's focus when you have got wind off the left let's focus on that really nervous tee shot that you want to try. And nail it it's only when you start playing golf do you actually remember all those things. And as a coach i think that really helps you i don't think you have to play an amazing standard i just think you need to play it at standard to go okay i understand golf like i understand all the elements because i've played last week. And i know how hard it is to hit certain shots. Or whatever it may be but it doesn't mean that coach hasn't got the knowledge to help students because they have really what would you what would your take on that saying yeah the they're very very similar exactly that in in the you know just to understand the small nuances that put rounds together like um you know every golf that comes from a door wants to shoot about score um maybe some you get get the odd person who's like a real just golf. And swing pervert they just love it and they just want to get right into all the little details and make them look a certain way you get the old ones those which which which i also enjoy but just the happiness you can get out of shooting a better score sometimes that just comes from something you can add which actually you wouldn't you won't ever see on a video. Or a launch monitor number which essentially those things i guess are a bit more long term. For what you want to be and then.

To the point of like the coaches like you know like um yes like i would say my my kind of usp. Or thing i'm really going to help people with it with is i've decent understanding the golf swing how i see the baseline of the golf swing. And then.

How being able to interpret that's something you can actually use. So that's i'm quite good at that part in the playing part of it but i also understand that there's like super smart people who with the ground reaction forces um and someone who's great with all the numbers and the graphs and that has a that 100 has a place and i think golf coaching is getting better now from was 15 years ago because it used to be you have your golf coach. And they do everything like you can't you know you can't go. And see anybody else yeah very territorial yeah it's very much. So whereas now it's a bit like you know what um this bit i think i think i can see something. But you know what let's go and see like uh steve furlong for instance well literally i was just about to say we went down there right yeah we met up with uh martin borgmeyer. And joe miller were down there lee cox their coach i'd recommend them to go to steve furlong because he had all the ground force reaction plates. And everything else and like so that is the new way of coaching a more holistic approach you're not as like territorial to your student you can be a little bit interesting mention later i've had a few lessons lovely um these are one of my favorite people in golf he's just. So when i went to him to help me with my driving i thought i wanted it further this is probably about four. Or five years ago i remember my wife doesn't play golf and i said i'm just going to see oh it's on my phone wherever i go this is a guy i'm going to go. And see for that long driving as if she's going to be anywhere interested in it. And she went well look at him he's obviously going to work isn't he what do you mean he looks like a long drive coach hey looks like a geezer doesn't he yeah um yeah. And yeah. And he's you know like he's a brilliant coach i had a lesson with him right and uh he's chatting away to me and he kept on doing this little thing where he was like look me look at me in the eye. And then.

He like i would hit my shot and then.

He'd roll roll the ball out of the the ball tray and up onto the rubber tee with his foot without even looking he did it about five times i'm like i don't even know how to do that just like. So when someone hits the ball he just rolls it with their foot while chatting to him that's so impressive i i would say that the one thing i've noticed in coach or instructions i say for the last probably 10 years and i think there was a big divide not long ago when i think it's getting better i used to always say that there was golf instructors that were like the white coat brigade. And what i mean by that almost like golf scientists. And they were really really really in-depth. And they really analyzed every single bit of it but actually weren't the best at translating the message to the student i would then.

Say on the other side there was a coach. And that coach had a mixture of level abilities so some would have really really high intensity of knowledge of the golf swing but others would just be able to get their point across in the best possible manner to be able to coach somebody i feel like over the time they've got a little bit better i feel like the golf scientists have become more coaches and i feel like the coaches have become a little bit more golf scientists and i think it's helped a lot better the whole industry personally what from what i've experienced the last 10 years. Or so yeah from what i've seen the last few years there's a a lot of ego has come out of golf coaching there's still ego it like they go everywhere. But it's come out of go golf coaching a little bit and it's not as territorial as you say and and every most coaches i would just you know just reach to uh on social media and so forth but everyone's quite forthcoming and kind of works together to a certain point i'm sure there's still some out there still arguing with of course there is. But when i first when i first started coaching i thought um like i played and i've you know i've been to like you know a lot of top coaches i had pete cowan and rocky helped me out you know you mentioned earlier and um david ledbetter i've been to david ledbet to school uh uh down in sarasota down in bradenton and then.

Um you know coach scott cranfield i kind of been to a bunch of them like spent no time with claude harmon. And then.

I thought oh but i need some sort of qualification you know i'm not a pg professional so i'll go along and i went along to foresight did like this uh this like day it was called like peak performance it was like their certification yeah not with leah's numbers yeah yeah that's right with little much closer. So we say in the morning it's in a bit of a classroom scenario he's the educator and he's going through i'm thinking he's got. So smart and it's a room full of pros like i would you know then.

Older guys to me i'm probably coming out with a guy now and um and the questions that are asking i was thinking i've got a clue what they're talking about here. And there and there's a guy there he's an older guy who lives in spain and he's like going oh what all the data. And the graphs that i've got on my players i've seen this and this happened that spike happens i'm just thinking this is what am i doing i'm not sure if i'm i've got time to learn all this sort of stuff to become a golf coach. And that was in the morning i felt way out my depth. And then.

In the afternoon we got split off into groups of four so there's like 10 i'd say 10 12 groups of four and yet one person had to hit shots and the other three basically had to give him a lesson sometime using a bit of tech or whatever so i've kind of like sat back a little bit and these guys were straight in there. So it's like just hitting these shots and spoon them right oh pro's a good player he's in it way right way right and then.

They're telling them all this stuff i'm just kind of hanging back and this guy's got the the ipad and he's like you got to feel like you've got to get the left you'll get your left knee working quicker early on the downswing so you get the pressure outside of your foot earlier that's going to do this to the path i was thinking. And this guy was getting worse. And time's pressing on i was pressing on. And it is they're like almost like we're going to wrap up soon. And i was just thinking oh i haven't said anything. And i said guys do you mind if i kind of have a go. And they're like and they're lost now because they just made the guy worse i was. And they're like yeah fine. So i said should we ask do we ask him what shot he's trying to hit oh that's great idea isn't it what shot you're trying to hit i just want to hit a fade right right you want it to fade right do you want to hit push fade you want to aim left. And fade it or do you want to aim straight swing over. And fade it i'll aim straight okay fine. So i'm like well just move the ball position like let's go two inches up in your stance and just feel like you turn your chest he doesn't he just rips it i have a little knuckle fade he looks he looks around at me like he's you know just like found water like he's like i thought okay do it again. And he's just ripping these balls out there and at that point that that was a bit almost validated my area. And it was like okay i understand that's the thing. But that's i've got the other side to it so you know i'll dip into you know i'll try that part of it but there's and then.

You start to find your own identity don't you within within coaching and just be accepting of like that person is good at that they're a specialist let's just go. And use that let's let that person be good at that and this person i can be good at this piece. And that person will get that piece because i was a product of going through had one coach. And you know and it was a bit like well i would look across thing i need to get that part. And there's someone there but my coach might lose his head if i go and talk to that person so i can't do it. And then.

You held back and that's what i've tried to do with any players to come through like just have no ego towards it like if just let the player get better good things will come yeah i think i might have been on the same day with you really a very similar one because i remember that whole thing that you just said not bothered i might have been the player spooning off to the right um. But yeah no it's that it's um i feel like what kind of where you've gone from. And where you've got two you seem very comfortable and then.

Obviously the tv work right that's kind of something fairly new is it how long have you been doing that yeah yeah actually oddly enough i looked on the linkedin the other day. And i i did my first one in 2019. So it's been a couple of years now but it starts off like really intermittent you know you get i'm friends with um uh dennis pugh is from the club that i'm at yeah. And dennis said i can retire. And you you should come along and watch me do a couple of shows. And my manager he can't he kind of mentioned it to me like would you be interested i was like yes i spoke dennis dennis said come. And watch me so i watched him do a couple of shows. And then.

They said well you'd like to come. And do one next.

Week. So go into the studio at sky you know get the earpiece in that sort of stuff and um yeah. And did the first one. And it's just like even even now a little bit to be honest with you it's like the most nerve-wracking experience it's so it's so nerve-wracking we had we had insane not long ago and she said when she first did the studio she really didn't enjoy it she really messed up quite a few times. But she said obviously she got a lot better at it now. But i've been asked to do it. And i'm like for live tv to speak for that long i love speaking but me for live tv it must be quite daunting and and to know all the players and i'd get all the pronunciation of the names wrong with me yeah you steer away from a couple of them yeah you do you end up like if you've got a complicated last name oh. So here's andy he's like got some mad last names so do you see you doing more of that more tv work yeah. So more more tv work um did some um. So much studio with sky and then.

Um do uh some of the majors. For the bbc radio which is like did did their radio uh at the open last year which was just like loved it it's one of the best experiences i've done reek firstly because the opening championship. And then.

You rock up in the morning and they said uh would you go. And watch uh can you go. And follow dj and rosie you're like yeah inside the room inside the right. And you're basically just chatting about what they're doing yeah you're just chatting about what you're doing you can't you almost can't mess up radio because no one else can see it. So you kind of got that going. For you um whereas obviously the live tv obviously is a bit more pressure because you know everyone you're trying to add something to the coverage that we're watching the same thing. So you're trying to add something else in which maybe is not you know to the viewer don't necessarily first see. So you know what you get your flow to it and that sort of stuff but it's great fun i mean i'm you know i've always watched the pj tour i've always watched like the golf. And television so now it's not quite a nice excuse because you know i'm you know way past going to nightclubs. And so forth so now my weekend sorted get to you get to go in you get to watch the golf and someone brings you a cappuccino and you can get the old dairy milk. And it's fish and chips on a friday night and it's just actually i do leave there sometimes thinking is that a real job you know it's you know what i love about hearing about this though is i was playing golf. For the day with a young lad and his dad who just joined with randomly the lad was 17 he's off one he's a really good player. And he's possibly gonna have a year out and just play and see how good he gets and then.

You know maybe go on to play or whatever job in golf but there are a lot of cool jobs in golf aren't there. And like you know most people who work in golf i'm sure group wants to be players some obviously do that. And some somehow don't but then.

There's so many jobs that like you don't even think of. And it's exciting people youngsters coming through that you might not make it but yeah there's. So many opportunities out there so the golf industry is. So wide in that way i mean. For me being a player and being fortunate to play on tour you just you just think that the whole like world revolves around you. And now coming in from like uh looking at the tv side of things you're like the players are just a very like a they seem like a big piece because they're in the front front of it all. But they're quite a small piece in the whole like juggernaut of the industry and it is. And and it's good and and you know and also you see people people in golf for completely different reasons like you know some people love it for the social side of it some people like the competitive side of it some people like it because they like having all the new equipment the health benefits the health benefits some people like to have the latest stuff to wear and that's how they want to do their stuff. And that's what's um you know when you start to coming out of the playing side of it and now i'm seeing that the other side of it is fascinating when you're a player you must think there's only one thing to do is to play golf yeah. And you can't understand that anyone else would want to play golf if they weren't trying to win tournaments but like we go to driving range a lot and you see such a mixture of golfers or non-golfers hundred percent just a mixture of people trying golf to some capacity i feel like it's not the last time we're gonna see you competing again i feel like there's there's an edge in you that kind of gives me a glimpse that you might do it again i still like i still enjoy it's still in me to compete. And i still work on my game a lot and yeah like i wouldn't be like someone said would you play again i would never i don't think i would sit out my store to be like right i'm giving up yeah i didn't do it last year because i just want to actually just want to do the radio thing. And even i'm booked in to do the radio thing uh this this year. So do both no i'm going to play with a headset yeah can you imagine that yeah can you just follow your group today.

Oh yeah not from the mods put the headphones on yeah through the radio just don't get paid material yeah. Or if yourself if you're not playing well you might get a few bad words out there one of the things i wanted to just touch on quickly is obviously just been announced as the rna um diversity ambassador. So i saw that online and then.

I think that's part of the way i touch it to come on. But tell us more about it sounds exciting yeah. So i've been working with the rna for um for about a year year and a half or so like just talking about some of the issues in golf and so forth and they've been really open uh to everything which has been great that they're really aware of their standing in golf what they are what. And what they aren't as well and so they kind of we open conversations with them and you know hopefully to help the educational side of it and then.

You know the rna when they make a decision they have to go through a long quite a long process of having the data and the research to back up why they make certain decisions and why they decide to go down a certain path so it's taken a while but it's kind of you know it's gotten there now and then.

Uh yeah i guess from my background you know like loving golf without being a black guy in golf like early on 25 years ago what that was like my own experiences of um i haven't i haven't had like people come at me directly on racism. But i've had people i've been in those situations because people who look at me wouldn't necessarily know that i'm you know i'm half black so i've been in those situations a lot and kind of like kind of lived it a little bit from that side of things and um yeah just trying to just try. And gel it all together because i think the approach. For golf uh for a long time has been like our goals are open to all um which are which actually is like yeah. But that's not enough that like disc is open to all that doesn't does not doesn't make it welcoming it's a bit like uh we're all gonna over here you can have a go if you want. But we're not really gonna take any notes of you yeah of course. And golf has the especially over the last five years golf has the capacity to uh to accommodate pretty much everybody from every walk of life and for all the different reasons like what we're saying there for me it was like it was to compete. But now you know now come on the other side i realized that people use gold for all different uh reasons and and it's not necessarily a matter of like trying to force your way onto the table it's just like how about just make the table bigger because golf can do it. And there's so many kind of layers to all this like from last year um uh stingsby um did a golf academy. So they did like it was they took four the female flurries presenters yeah. And uh georgia bingham was it. And uh uh fleur east bellasha uh necklace and helen skelton oh that was it yeah. And they took um they had had all had a coach each and then.

They were complete beginners. And had nine months to play golf and then.

They had like a mini comp at the end of it and the best one got into the into the program at the pga it went worth like hugely daunting and um i got asked to go along and do one of their things at topgolf you know just give him a few pointers. And so forth and um i was throwing right in the deep end with that by the way i thought i was going there just to like just help out a little bit. And they said all right you had all this tv crew there like right. So what you're going to tell them i was like what do you mean yeah literally give me golfers in the front row something i was going to do. But it was great right. So my wife come along and wife you know we've been together for however. long she's been on tour with me no interest in picking up a golf club whatsoever. And we finished the afternoon and we sat around the table like or they sat around the table like this and they had their gin and tonics out and having a laugh we're driving home is louise to me like i think i might give golf a go i was like because she just saw people like her you know having a good time. And the social side now she has a golf lesson every week every monday she goes with her mate so the golf lesson and they have a bit lunch afterwards and that to her yeah she wants to get out of the golf course. But that to her is golf i'm completely fine with that. And you just thought it was the g. And t's talking at first but she's actually a little bit she backed it up yeah i thought it'd be two weeks. But she's done it now every monday for like three months and she's pressing on with it and then.

You start to see you go actually yeah i see it from a competing background that's social aspect yeah. And then.

And then.

Uh being part of black british golfers that was another part which was um kind of started i was chatting to this guy ray we've been chatting. For a couple of years and we're like we'd probably do a bit more with this you know what what could what could happen what what what should be happening. And so ray um started this instagram channel black british golfers and it was great because what i remember he he he posted like a a black guy who was playing golf. And then.

And then.

The next.

Day i found another black golfer you'll post it i found this woman and another black girlfriend you post it and it just like kind of picked up steam and what was what was really good that came out of that was. And even the chats with the rna it was like yeah it's great we can have like a um an ex premier league footballer who now golf. And and they're going to help golf going through. But actually there's also massive power in like just another normal person who's down the driving range hitting balls and posting that because then.

People because then.

People can re-relate to that because just because people aspire to people people like them. Or people they aspire to be and that's like that's had so much power just seeing someone else out there and then.

Off the back of that we found that there was also there was like the zimbabwean gold society afro-caribbean society like you met the muslim girls society yeah. For the muslim society so all of a sudden you're like it is out there yeah yeah it is out there like goldfish actually he's actually doing quite a good job. So it's like now like how do we show all those. So that when someone comes in they go like okay i've been to been to the driving range. Or crazy golf or or been introduced to it by a family member but always the next.

Step those people try golf and that's really easy but next.

Step is like i want to keep going with this where do i go. So it's like now as we can like kind of show that all these people are out there playing golf you can help people like you know what um if you want to try golf those people in your area. And you probably align with them like and then.

They're really good people and then.

That person then.

Stays in golf whereas you know um like my dad being a been a back black guy back then.

He's quite like he's very direct about well i'm doing this i'm gonna do whatever. But for the next.

Person to walk into some golf clubs it's quite it's quite daunting yeah you know i'm sitting here in my hat on backwards today.

Probably three three years ago i was hitting balls in the range um it was a saturday afternoon you know i got my shirt out shorts on benny went out there. And you know and the and the director goal for the golf club comes up lasagna everything right oh he got the hat around so i was like well have i he's like well yeah he should do really i was like we're not looking. For confrontation i said let me tell you what i'll meet in the middle i'll take it off i'm not bothered i put it on sideways i'll meet you in the middle well i'm not looking. For conversations but is that actually a rule um yeah well i can i can bring it up in the meeting i was like well yeah you should because i can i can i don't have to tap my shirt in i can wear jeans in the clubhouse i can be on my phone all these things just uh just seems a bit odd that i am hap a certain way like i'm not sure if that's a rule. But you know not being confrontational as it turned out it wasn't a rule but at that time i did feel uncomfortable yeah i i felt uncomfortable with being myself. And i thought right i'm a you know 36 37 year old professional golfer who's been here forever like and i think if i feel uncomfortable what would like what was someone who just started the game feel like that's their first time going into the course. And they got a second third time they wouldn't come back would they that's that to me is an absolute travesty i know it's there's definitely a link missing between participation. And actual golf you see all these drive ranges there well never seen driving rangers busy in my life at the moment like we went to topgolf down in watford a few weeks ago it was amazing absolutely amazing packed full of honestly i would say non-golfers yeah i'd say none what we would classes playing 18 holes having a handicap. But why can't they why can't they become that potentially yeah. Or at least have a have a way of being able to become a member of a golf club and play golf regularly i think that this this is something i have very very limit limited knowledge. Or experience on but like our where we are now in kind of manchester area is a very mixed you know lots of different ethnicities. And stuff like that you go to the golf course we go to it's mostly white people when you use the driving range on a night it's an absolute mix of everybody different backgrounds races et cetera and you wonder what old male or female and you wonder like is that is there something that people feel like they can't go to a golf club because it it's very different it's chalk. And cheese isn't it and like say at the driving range they can wear what they want yeah backwards they can you know what they yeah they can't take that same step back onto a golf course really can they at all. And there's definitely a link missing i feel like i thought about this like quick six idea where you like build six holes quite short like big holes not bucket holes but bigger than normal just make it fun no dress code music layering if you want it yeah. And it's that step way between driving range that and then.

Golf potentially it might even be one more step needed between that and golf but there's definitely we're in an unbelievable position right now i don't think golf's ever been stronger i don't like we see it on our viewing figures. And stuff like we're getting more views never before golf has never been stronger and more people are picking up people we're bumping into saying i've picked up in the last two years because of lockdown. And stuff i used to play football every week and then.

Since since lockdown i now play golf because it's more an individual sport and everything else that ring is such a great position now that we just need to like push on. But the other thing is i've also heard. And see on twitter a lot of golfers don't want it to push on a lot of actual golfers who remember they don't want the golf course they don't want busier yeah busier time which is. So it's like a weird battle right people who think working golf want it to be busier yeah because we want it we want that that energy. And we want that and we want people to enjoy the sport we love so much but a normal golfer players on a saturday afternoon doesn't want their tee time taking up at two o'clock every week because that's when they play you know so it's really weird one isn't it it's a it's a funny situation in that you could look at um dress code for instance dress code's quite a big one for me i think there are some clubs which you know they're a bit more traditional. And you know you've got to wear the long socks for the shorts and so forth and like you know what like if that's the way they want to be that's completely fine and when you become a member you either sign up you don't sign up to that but there are there are enough play other places you can go to that will align with wearing a hoodie on the golf course. Or or not having to wear uh you know i mean in the day when you you had to wear golf shoes now proper space shoes shoes exactly trainers are golf shoes aren't they really it's just about how can we like to make sure that everyone finds their i personally i think there are enough there's enough space. For everybody it's just direct because the the top of it looks like golf is still traditional. And it's that it's like loads of places to be down to be like that yeah i think we're really close to this as well well i i've seen a lot of places now um wherever i played recently. And i was like i wonder if they'd like that dress code. And they were it's like hoodies now nine cent place is a good like you can wear a hoodie obviously. And like golf trainers you can wear it everywhere yeah can't you really well that's it. And i saw a thing a while ago somebody said that like if you go to a smart restaurant on a night out even if there's not a dress code you will typically dress quite smart if a golf course has hasn't got a dress code a lot of golf would still turn up in golf gear because that's how they want to present themselves. And that's up to them other people might be a bit more relaxed and were t-shirt. But yeah it shouldn't really matter should it. But crazy hopefully it'll change well zane you have been a wonderful guest anything else you want to talk about cover there's probably about a million things what what in golf do you want to cover i can cover it where can people follow yeah. But how to get better zane i want to get better at golf please you've learned the trick put the ball back in your stance on the inside yeah that's exactly what i need to do where can people find you on social media if you want to check you out. And follow you so um instagram was probably what i use the most sm sailing scotland golf yeah um i think i'm at zone scott on twitter um facebook zane scotland yeah we'll link them down below as well yeah they're the main ones really i think i've got a tick tock. But i logged out of it start another one but now it's the wrong one so i'm not yeah i'm not quite up in the tickets i've got tickets. But i've deleted the app because it's such a waste of time i find myself just like it's carnage oh yeah it's just does your editing like an hour suddenly you go oh crashed i've clicked on like a thousand tick tocks here anyways then.

You've been a pleasure. And all the best with everything else that you're gonna cover i think we should try. And shoot a video one day love too yeah brilliant you want me to come down to wisley was that yeah you boys are welcome your boys are working i need a i need a mental um well out the three things that faldor said i don't particularly have technical um strength i don't particularly physical they don't particularly have mental strength at the moment. So all three could be worked on please that'd be great yeah yeah it'd take 20 minutes. Or so depending on how much we're going to play. For yeah depends on what you tell me it's ain't even a pleasure thanks. So much thanks for listening everybody make sure you like and subscribe and we shall see you soon next.

Week on the podcast peace out.