Hi guy all right rick all right right episode number 91 yep it's not in that middle ground now between like night it was fairly exciting. And a really good podcast and then.
We're kind of just counting down the days to 100 now yeah let's just release eight more very average podcasts. And then.
Have a big party for 100. i feel like we need to plan it like this week are we actually doing it i think we do something big okay live richie's golf show podcast me you anyone else um who else would you have on look at a third co-host yeah a lot of i think maybe we could have like a couple of like guest co-hosts that'd be good throughout we could do maybe like a two hour one i have a couple of guest co-hosts i feel like this one on things now we've committed to committing okay committed on your head be it your job great um welcome back to rickshaws golf show podcast everybody episode number 91 uh today's one is actually a really interesting one because we've just sat down with. For a full-on interview with england golf jeremy and gemma yes. So jeremy tomlinson and gemma hunter you might remember gemma from the world handicap golf world handicap where's my words world handicap system yeah yeah um podcast which is actually one of our best podcasts ever gemma's very good she knows we're still good. So how long ago was that by the way what ages i looked before trying to look at the numbers we did it i think it was like. So god must be after like episode 30 it was ages ago anyway gemma. And jeremy are coming here today.
And and they want to they've already come oh yeah because they have yeah sorry they've just left drake should have attended it's happening now we've already done the podcast. So we've just recorded the podcast with them it's very interesting you learn a lot about handicaps yeah also a new handicap that's coming out where you don't have to be a member of the golf club which i think will be a really really important handicap i ended up doing it oh yeah you listen to the angle my handicap is there you got a little fish little hook there i feel like you know what you do it's not even hard. For a week doing nothing but eat and just walk around you know what though people with pet with children will relate to this it's not a holiday with kids i can imagine three kids it's freaking stressful yeah like really stressful come. For a week of work i've come back to the office just to sitting silence i've actually filmed a good video this morning which will be out not. Yet because that's just going out tomorrow no that'll be out soon yeah this week well we've got new golf balls not a new golf ball it's a good golf ball. But is it a good golf ball oh that was nice um yeah. So i had a nice holiday nice bit of time away down at the cotswolds which was lovely bumped into a few fans which was nice fans of mine of yours. And mine um which always i find it strange outside of the golf setting still like i expected a golf set in now and again some kind of a big deal but outside of a golf setting it kind of i think it surprises them that's what i'm going to say because if you're at um an event. And you see you you might be like oh i saw an instagram is coming here. Or whatever but if you all stood uh a a mac and cheese van would you believe one fan was we have some mac. And cheese and next.
You're looking rick shields as a shout in the odds i was at a caravan park which we weren't even staying at at a mac. And cheese van ordering mac and cheese and a fan said look to me when you she knows i went yeah i think he said that though because you bash through the front of the queue with your blue tick on instagram because that's a rick that's if you didn't know this that's what rick often does whenever we can up. For food he just barge it gets his instagram blue tick let me in now and the uh to do well yeah that's really what it was lots of clouds because you've got rickshaws. And rick shields are you rick shields hi guys it's rick shields down here at the campsite at the mac. And cheese van cheese it was honestly it was that good. So i had to order the food via phone as well in advance it was that good actually text the number afterwards. And said that was unbelievable the reply yeah that's quite good they wanted me to give him a facebook review. But i'm not into that stuff too much effort i'll tell you what i'm really into mac and cheese recently because we had it at the end he's got really popular very i do i'm a big fan of mac. And cheese i feel like a lot of american listeners will be dead into i feel like mac. And cheese is huge they'll have more stuff than like old bits. And bats i just quite like mac and cheese when it was bacon cheddar. And onion yeah okay no. But it was nice nice bitter get away nice to be back i feel kind of ready to start work again um. And we've got a exciting week this week because we're off to the ladies open office delays open to do some bits. And bats and just watch some golf should be good so it can't use to this year should we've played oh i can't have you played a few times haven't you uh played with me once i've only played it a full round with you though i've only played it once a full video oh yeah okay we filmed there yeah that was good it was a good course wasn't hard on when you played a little weirdly dead easy which it sounds my obviously carnoustie is known. For one of the hardest causes around but to be fair that day it was easy there's no rough it was nice a little bit of soft breeze not too much it was dead easy imagine it'd be i think i would beat you that day as well did you i shot the lights out did you sure we played with liam you've heard of liam from golf mates who uh it'd be quite good to get him on the podcast. But he's a busy man i'd i asked him i'd text me the day i asked him for it to come on because if you know i'm sure a lot of people listen knows what liam is he's got a golf youtube channel called golf mates it's really big doing really well. And he also carried as you said last week. Or whatever on the bag for dan gavins and one european tour event which is outrageous. So i text him saying you want to come on and he was busy i think he legitimately was caddying again. For dan yeah. So he was actually busy. But that's a podcast for the future i think how because my my question to him would be like he came from because whereas you're pj pro you were kind of delivering a service to try. And get people playing better golf and hopefully get more clients he came off the back of why look at him in the mirror in the phone um it looks good um he he kind of came from nowhere didn't he and built a channel and i remember his youtube channel at the start from nowhere came from a lesson with you and his channel kind of i remember being on like 4 000 subs for what felt like an eternity and then.
All of a sudden he got some real momentum and now he's doing really well got a full team and he's employing people and killing it it would be getting good to get them on the on the podcast i'm just kind of fine and you might not have something happening on your phone okay this podcast today.
With jeremy. And gemma what's their official role so jeremy is the ceo of england golf yeah you don't know that oh. So he's the he's the big dog he's the top dog yeah all right he's the biggest guy at england golf he's six foot seven um he's really nice. So he was a big wig as well uh i believe a kushner before used to work. For england golf so he's very established in the golf industry wow and he was a very nice guy as well he wasn't kind of super corporate he spoke really well. And he was very engaging very obviously intelligent guy. And then.
Gemma is um england golf's head of handicapping. And course rating and this is in the notes is widely recognised as one of the most knowledgeable people on the world handicap system in the uk which i would agree with possibly from the world in the world she knows a lot about golf a lot about the handycam system if you have a question they typically know the answer. So it's good we had 45 minutes with them yes we learned about a bit more about world handicap system that the trials the tribulations about this new eye golf as you said anyone in the world. Or anyone in england can have a handicap without being a member of a course that was exciting um i did it. And paid for it i don't know why i'm kind of wondering why i did that now i'm surprised you did that not that you're tight. Or anything but i just thought whoa it was done. For work really it was done. For the podcast ideally i've got a good receipt as well so ideally that should be expensive um no. But they were they were good really good chat i i kind of wanted to not just pamper the situation as well because even though golf is a boom at the moment. And they explained about how much of a boom it was in i also wanted to find out what they're gonna do to continue that. And how can they get more people in like we've spoke about loads on this podcast about somewhat barriers. And limitations golfers will have daft rules. And stupid stuff and i felt like they answered it very well they did. And um and i've come up with a revolutionary revolutionary ideas with a really good idea that i thought was very innovative very forward-thinking number five. And then.
They said they're already doing it basically not the way i say not the way i would do it yeah you could do it with music okay then.
Um. So yeah sit back relax anything else we need to cover any of the news um one thing to to we was in a different formation because obviously i was next.
To you. And i had to really all our microphone stand is really long it's probably the length of this one we've got. And a bit more so someone's boasting let's stop all this nonsense we had last week got little ricky i actually um did it did cleo tell you a texter yeah. So a text um rick's wife uh we might believe that if you're gonna be able to know a name would you say your name and only on yeah sorry um i texted on their birthday weird if you bleep today.
Look i forgot kind of over the bleeping reason i really enjoy listening about the podcast when we swear. And you bleep it out well matt bleeps it out i text her saying that happy birthday nice um my thinking was that if i come across like i'm a nice guy to claire yeah she then.
Says i tell you what rick guy's a nice guy you go he's a nice guy. And then.
When i'm on a salary review you can go yeah he's a nice guy in it i'll go on today.
You know what he wanted to expense his own makeup receipt i did well yeah um. But she said rick played me the start of this week's podcast oh my god owls. And stitches a story i didn't think he'd tell. And i replied i never want to hear about little ricky ever again i found out a few more bits i googled it more more juicy gossip it is a real drink yeah i've heard that. And it's your hour yeah mama joanna i got the name wrong it's not marijuana. Or whatever i said mario joanna um. And it helps with the blood flow around certain areas okay that's very sorry yeah anyway uh should we get onto a proper serious yeah we've got a good podcast coming up about 45 minutes with england golf even if you're not listening to england which a lot of our listeners now are worldwide is awesome. But it's definitely worth listening to it's not too englandy i think you'll learn some stuff about where golf's going how golf is growing how we can make golf even better. And more fun for more people across the world so enjoy it next.
Week is we have an absolute i don't say monsters that feels like the wrong. And and i don't think legend quite gives it enough legend gets banded about bounded around too much these days. But legend of the golf game our next.
Guest next.
Week episode 92 it it's it's massive 100 massive one of the biggest guests we're ever ever ever going to have on the rickshaw this person would beat you 10. And 8. would be most people in the world ten and eight the lowest score in a competitive round is what is one of the lowest scores in history yeah. So next.
Week podcast coming up anyway before that let's dive into our chat with gemma and jeremy [Music] well it's very nice to have you both on the podcast jeremy and gemma thanks for being on the rickshaws golf podcast hi great to be here um i'm excited because gemma last time we had you on the podcast you're the star of the show you had you actually had one of our most downloaded episodes ever. And i believe it's it's catapulted you to fame unbelievably so i believe you got recognized yeah in halfords there you go that's what happens when you come on the show it is it was it was very nice it was a little bit of a shock. But yeah it's uh it's always good nice to be back it's amazing that somebody managed to recognize you when you had your mask on they recognized you from the voice didn't they from the podcast yeah i think it's the uh the northern accent i think it's quite unique i hope you either give you better service. Or discount i was a very nice guy. But i didn't get a discount oh boo um loads of things to dive into today.
I am really interested to know with everything that's gone on the last couple of years i want to ask the first question i have no facts on this is golf booming at the moment because it feels like it is yes it is i really just just have to jump in. And yeah. And say it and it really is. And don't get me wrong the last thing you would ever want is a pandemic a global pandemic. So let's get that clear to start with but for golf it's it's proven to be almost a perfect storm there is whether it be from um an image a perception about golf i think what it's done is it's just almost through there's a certain amount of necessity through people not being able to throughout the different three different lockdowns people have come back. And they haven't been able to perhaps do their own sport. So golf is the number one second sport worldwide. So what people tend to do then.
Is that they've reverted to perhaps their second sport. Or something where you know that it works well from a mental and physical perspective and they've gone you know what it's not potentially that good walk spoiled i can go out. And i get some exercise i can play some golf. And um whether it be from just a participation perspective or the effect on membership it's it's really been a great 18 months yeah i just i mean obviously we've seen it on the youtube. And social media and everything else but it just feels like the more people we've even spoke to it feels like there's so many more new golfers or returning golfers or you know different and it's great to see so many different stereotypes of golfers as well like younger or footballers you know like you mentioned there they might they might have played their they might have every saturday played 11 11 man team yeah 11 aside just to note rick's going to football loads recently. So that was him trying to show off how much you know just embarrassed myself yeah. But i and that'll be out there all day playing football whatever like i feel like that's the type of person now that are getting into golf. And loving it and getting all the new gear and really that is there now you mentioned their second sport it's actually almost becoming their their first sport their main sport which is really exciting to see there's been. So many examples of cricketers footballers that couldn't play sport during the the lockdown because their season was just demolished by the fact they're in the middle of the pandemic. And they just wanted something else to do another opportunity to get together with the mates. And be sporty and and they've taken up golf whether they've probably played before anyway but they've actually gone actually i'll go to a golf club i'll join a golf club i'll play more regularly and yeah okay there might be the element that they're going to go back into football when the season starts. But actually they'll always still play golf because they they've enjoyed it so much that we've we've got those back into the game how do you measure all this like is there actual quant of quantifiable like stats. And facts there's more people in are you measuring participation are you measuring rounds of golf played are you measuring new memberships what what's the metric that's actually measurable well certainly you'll have two measurables there one is rounds of play the second is membership right. So you definitely have those and and to give you an idea you know rounds of plays say coming out of each lockdown would be double in treble times what what would you get could you really because people have been starved and it's that same old thing you don't really know what you've lost until you've lost it or had it taken away from you part-time so that has had an amazing effect certainly with regards to memberships throughout england we've seen well it will be in excess of 25 to 30 000 new members of golf clubs which was very much encouraged because of course playing rights became. So important because coming out of lockdown so many members wanted to play golf there weren't tea times available for green fee players as they normally would be so that's really helped and then.
So to put that into a percentage how many and again you guys are the people to ask how many members are there at golf clubs in england is there is there a number that is kind of year on year how many members are sure. And obviously you're england golf i'm guessing that's the number you mainly measure how many members are in england well we would have in england at the end of last year there were 650 000 members wow we believe that that number could grow in excess of 660 000 wow. But on top of that you would have participants there's probably another two million that would be regular golfers yes. And then.
Another three and a half to four million that would be sports and recreational golfers that might enjoy something like adventure golf crazy golf putting green go to a top golf something along those lines and do you track that measurements as well like do you track how many people are going to driving ranges. For example yes because driving ranges are packed at the moment when we've we've got one that's really close to us traffic golf center where i used to work i've never seen it busier they're queuing it up yeah literally across the car park. And then.
All the way to the other car park and then.
The adventure golf and it's bonkers and you know what i always i'm always a big advocate of this when something looks busy you want to go yeah like if there's not if there's an ice cream shop that's busy it's got loads of people in. And there's one next.
To it it's not you go to the one that's busy and you queue hopefully that's having that effect with golf as well hopefully it's not putting people off because of the queue or the higher demand of trying to get in hopefully it's going. But the hell golf's booming i i want to i want a piece of that i want to get a part of that well rick you there's always if you like that critical mass number which means it perpetuates yeah. And that's exactly as you've explained you start queuing up for something and people are going well i want to do that because it's like that demand thing. And but i think the biggest thing really is that the people have come in. And they've gone golf can be fun it is fun you know what even if it's just going to have to go into a driving range having a couple of beers. And and hitting a ball it's just fun and it just feels like it's got cooler it feels like yeah a lot of celebrities are getting into it a lot of sports people are getting into it it feels i mean even i've had some olympians who've just won gold in late tokyo olympics texting me. And going. Or messaging me how do i get into golf you're thinking oh my god this is like how cool is golf at the moment like it just feels different to what it has done in the certainly when i was growing up. And you guys have obviously seen it through the eyes of england golf like it just seems like it's in an unbelievably strong position your goal now i guess is to continue it grow it nurture it get those member participants that are on the kind of cuff of of getting into golf properly playing out on the golf course joining memberships. And potentially even getting handicaps well quick question though because i think we've jumped into this quite hard yeah we've not even got in what you wanted to get in quite early on is obviously we've got jeremy. And gemma from england golf but to our listeners who are england golf. And what does england golf do well england golf is is the governing body. For um for amateur golf in england so that means we look after we look we would look after all governance matters or the rules all handicapping we look after the national teams we look after the national championships so they're just sort of the main parts of of what we would do. But we with regards to certain things such as the rules and with regards to handicapping we would be the conduit for our country where we have the rna and the usga would be if you like they take care of the world with regards to setting the rules and the handicapping scenario with the conduit we make sure that it's it's hopefully all in the right place with regards to england so that's our job and our role how many governing bodies are there globally. So so for example does scotland have a governing body as well scotland golf wales golf welsh golf. And then.
What what about like france golf is that is that yeah federation to france yeah in america. And then.
What's america's version the usgs so that so that's almost like our rrna a little bit is it a little bit different in the u.s because we've got a lot of u.s audiences i'm just trying to understand are you more like a state kind of governing body in the u.s if you look at us in terms of size we probably are the equivalent of something like florida state golf association okay um. But we're very different because obviously the state golf association is an entity within itself uh whereas others england golf we've got 35 counties. And and all our golf clubs as well so that we're we're sort of like the the oversight we are the the ones that are trying to lead we're trying to lead the the game great. And make sure we govern it in the right way and and show how good this sport is brilliant. And sell it and that's kind of your headline objectives growth what what is there is there a tagline from england golf as such well well our tagline right now is together in golf great um quite simply you know wanting to make you know that that's where our our course planner our five-year strategic plan that's the message that we want to put across that we're all better together in in the game nurturing. And promoting the game um but yeah it's it's as much about maintaining. And making sure that the way that golf is seen is that it's relevant that it does have the right image the right have the right perception unfortunately there is that there's an antiquated view of golf that it is this stuffy old middle-aged white man sport yeah. And and and we're trying to to to make sure that people get a true reflection of what golf really is there are some wonderful people it is an inclusive sport uh. And it isn't that stuffy game that some people think it is yeah no obviously that's kind of one of our main missions we want to we want to make golf a little fun absolutely we want it to we want anybody anybody in the world who regardless of of how much money they've got to play the game where they can play it that be able to showcase you can play golf it might be in a different you might not be playing robert dale. Or somewhere like that where it's 300 pound of greenfield whatever with the best golf clubs in the world it might be at your local municipal golf course you might be playing the set that you bought from sports direct or you might be going to a driving range. Or mini golf adventure golf it's still golf as long as you're getting involved and and participating and growing in growing in love with the sport that we obviously all love that's a kind of massive bonus really and i'm guessing that's obviously along the lines that you guys want to go with as well exactly absolutely yeah. For sure the world handicap system changed massively obviously last year and gemma when we had you on it was a very insightful chat. And uh i'm sure many people have listened multiple times to get their head fully around it has that now settled does that happen is that going really nicely has that kind of gone to plan i think it went to plan as well as we could launching mid pandemic um. But i think we got to the point where we actually had two launches being realistic uh we had the second of november we played. For three days we went into another lockdown and then.
We actually had like the end the end of march when we we came back out of lockdowns and started to resume some normality in terms of of where we were. And as you can imagine second of november to sort of like coming back in in april. And end of march beginning of april the the number of inquiries the number of questions were just unbelievable yeah to the point we were having around about 15 000 emails in a week oh my word oh my goodness it's all on handicaps just on handicaps what queries about their handicap change. For example why it was what it was uh why they changed what the system meant some people asking what was the world handicap system they'd never what was whs they'd not heard about it. And loads of different things really uh but the biggest problem was people weren't using it. So they were asking these questions in the room to christmas. And just after christmas but nobody had actually had time to go out there and try it um so once people started to come back to golf and started playing again jeremy merchant before about how many schools had started people rounds had been being played the spike in the number of scores that we were having submitted under whs was ridiculous we've already had up to now the same amount of scores returned in 2021 as we had in the hall of 2019. oh wow. So we we ignored 2020 figures because we were just. But for the whole of 29 we're already at that five million scores in a year and bear in mind we only started playing golf in march correct yeah january february we couldn't not in england anyway the end of march as well. So we have three months there where there was nothing oh yeah it was the end of march one it was it was april when it kicked in wow. So it's crazy it's been huge so that was sort of like our sort of like second launch. And but since then.
It's everybody's got used to it everybody's getting used to playing with it and just getting involved and putting scores in and seeing the reaction in yourself right you've seen you've seen the reaction of what the handicap looks like and how it works so the whole thing people are just getting used to i think you've got to try it you've got to get it in your hand. And you've got to play with it yourself to understand it and that's where we are now um obviously we've still got things that we we know we can iron out. And we can improve um. But yeah it's um when you say i mean a huge part of whs was to get golfers to put more scores in to get more used to recording their scores to get more used to having you know getting a truer reflection of their ability the old system that we had was it was fine. And it worked for a time um people never seemed to believe us did they when we told them there was going to be this huge a huge change. But it was a huge change. But it was all about. And the whole idea stemmed from people not being scared of doing a card of actually really wanting to go out and do a card. And you did a brilliant piece on it you know i think you plus two well. Or whatever it was. But your head's gone big enough for that door now so he's got this new hs handicap jeremy we're not here for me are we not is it a big rs right. But that whole idea though that really helped because it's getting away from this horrible scenario where people would get a handicap and almost feel like they were stuck with it they now have a situation where they can go out. And every time they play whether it's with their friends or just another member in more relaxed circumstances they get away from this feeling of being scared of it and they then.
Get a true reflection of their handicap so hopefully they can enjoy the game more when they compete well one of the sorry one of the big things obviously that's changed i think already. And one of the reasons you've come on the show today.
Is because up until very recently you had to be a member of a golf club to have an official handicap. For sure i believe now there's igolf we've had loads of questions on the podcast group about this in the last few weeks people want to know more about it so i've got the perfect people to tell us please explain what is igolf. And how people can get a handicap without being a member of a club sure well if i start jim. And if you you want to take over but certainly from an art from an igolf perspective what we wanted to do was as a governing body we were seemingly only touching. And connecting and engaging with members of golf clubs and that wasn't a great place to be so what whs has allowed us to do. And allowed us to is to extend was to be able to extend that reach. And and and to be able to offer that handicap or handicapping ability that that way to to provide a measurement tool for people with regards to their own ability to to non-members which has never happened before so that's really what we do igolf we launched igolf specific on july the 13th specifically with the view to reach out to non-members of golf clubs to be able to offer them the ability to have a handicap to be able to log into the app to be able to to to to enter scores. And also very importantly that it gives them a certain amount of insurance as well just like as if they were a member. So if anything happened bad on the golf course they have a personal liability insurance up to 10 million pounds worth of cover so those two really important aspects of handicap and some insurance for what we wanted to offer and this is pete you need to pay. For this service yeah it's um 40 pound per year okay on a rolling 12 months um. And for that um you get your handicap looked after all the way through when you get that insurance that's great because well yeah that's a massive benefit because like i say how many non-members of golf clubs almost feel i don't know almost out of golf because they don't have a handicap because one of the questions is when you get when you whenever you play golf whether let's say you went to a wedding this weekend. And you bumped into another oh you play golf yeah i play golf what's the next.
Question what's your handicap the two questions if somebody finds out you you play golf. Or you're a golfer they ask you two questions like watch your handicap and either word you play or what clubs you use yeah they're the questions that people always ask if they find out that you play golf. So to be able to say to everybody you don't have to be a golf club member anymore you can have a handicap you can track your ability you can measure yourself against your peers it is a great opportunity this is a genuine handicap it's not like an asterix next.
To it it's a com no it's a it's a whs handicap index the same as anybody else's handicap index it's measured it's calculated the same way it's measured the same way you are just an eye golf subscriber rather than a golf club member that that's the only difference. And is this just england golf you have to be in england. Or like you have to be in england currently so to join igolf you have to be resident in england and and you can you can have a a handicap index do america have a similar thing than in the states. Or the us and other countries around the world have had gold for handicaps for independent golfers on non-member golfers for for many many years and they've all done it slightly differently everybody can does it in their own unique way. And we feel that this this way and what would the product that we've got here and the the the ability to do it the way we do it with igolf is is the best suited. For for our market so i'm a girlfriend in england i'm not a member of a golf club uh i want a handicap explain to me exactly what i've got what what have i got to do right now to get that to happen. So exactly the same as if you were a golf club member first of all you've got to sign up to the program which is what website website. So right you can go via the england golf website. Or we have an england golf i golf dot co dot uk i think is the right i'll probably put a link in the podcast as well on the youtube video um. So we you you sign up through that pay 40 pounds if you have any point um being a member of a golf club before so maybe you've just you've had a break away from the game and you're now looking to come back if you know your old membership id number we can find your record we can bring you into the game using all your old data would that would be a benefit to the golf. For doing that or not really well is if you've already got scores right. So if you've already got scores within the system let's use this like instant then.
Yeah yeah straight away. But do those scores have to have happened within a certain time frame. So between so from 2018 so just as if a golf club remember when we did the transition. For whs we took scores from 2018 onwards so we can use those scores they're genuine skills they're already in the system. So we can we can use them you sign up you get your membership number you get access to the app you can then.
Start to put in scores. And like the world handicap system you put in your your eight scores and then.
Your 20 scores and it'll it'll just work out three three 54 holes three rounds 54 holes worth of scores will give you your initial index. And then.
You build it from there great quite two questions then.
On on the whole it sounds awesome and i am a member of a golf club now but i've not got a handicap burst i actually might look at doing this and putting in my old cdh number and seeing what i can get down to ever. But obviously in the old handicap kind of world i think he could put cards in couldn't you. But it was more often people did it in comps. And obviously now you don't have to be in a con which is is good yes what do you think. And i'm kind of being a bit negative on this but do you think that people might might be some more dodgy scores people are playing with a friend at a random course that might not be playing completes the rules. And putting scores in or we we're going to police this exactly the way as a golf club would. So we have a handicap committee within within the i golf community we have that that committee already structure you have to put a score in via the app it has to be attested by another igolf user or a golf club member okay. So if if you don't know anybody that's an igolf member or a golf club member get your friends to sign up as well because you need somebody else to verify yourself on your own for example it's probably one of the biggest things that we've had in in the last few weeks is people say i don't have a friend to mark my card they're probably playing golf with somebody else. But they've just not signed up or they don't understand but we have to regulate these handicaps exactly the same way as a golf club member board we're checking them as well and to be fair there's there's a geolocator on the app as well so you actually have to be at the golf course there's a time as well so you have to be at the golf club but and when you say that you're going to do the score then.
There's a time frame within which you must return the score. So the app is quite developed because we wanted to take it to a certain level. But we also want to rely on the fact that golf is about integrity there's a certain amount of honesty. And yes you know that there is some people might it is open to some people like it would be to some members. But at the same time at some stage somebody's going to pick them up on it. And um you know we've got things in to make sure that is the the level of integrity is well we certainly believe it's greater than it ever was before on the previous system. But um you know we still rely on people's honesty here has has there been any kickback from golf clubs then.
Who are worried that they might potentially lose members. Or not attract new members because one benefit if you like have been a member of a golf club was always you could then.
Have an official handicap. But because you can do this through high golf that may possibly stop people joining golf clubs sure it's um it was the biggest worry to be honest. And with regards to our own stakeholders whether that's counties or clubs or plenty of members that was their main concern. So the way that we we've tried to uh um uh to position this this is not an alternative to golf club membership okay this is part of a pathway that we would like to be able to provide we spoke about it already we don't like the idea that there are people out there that can go out. And enjoy golf but not feel part of the community so we want to be able to bring people into the community and if they decide then.
That golf club membership because they then.
Learn more about golf clubs uh is a good way to go then.
Brilliant. And we've already had some people get you know become members uh become members of the of golf clubs from from doing it but it's you know it's it's 40 pounds a year it doesn't give you the same there's no playing rights that go with it yes it's a it's a great subscription platform. But there's no playing rights you don't get the same ability to compete. Or the social aspects that you get from a golf club so we just want to be very clear we you know there is a pathway to golf club membership. And we're keen that that's what we want to enthuse people about yeah well that's what it is it's a pathway i'd like to say i'm sure the hunger. For potential planning competitions you know once you've got a handicap match put your skills the test in it really it just might become we i mean we've had a we had a dear rick a few weeks ago didn't we. And they got a handicap and he was he was like wanting to play in competitions because he then.
Wanted to test himself a little bit more he actually felt like his handicap was um too high. And he felt like he was going to win the competition which quite uh bold shout out i'd actually like to go on. But i think that's like say when once you've got through that stage of getting you you want to play golf. And you want to go to driving range have some lessons maybe then.
Go to a golf course play 18 holes maybe get a handicap okay what's next.
I want to compete okay what's next.
I want to get my handicap lower okay what's next.
I want to whatever it may be there's like there's a kind of pathways. And all you've done is you've filled a void by the sound of things that was missing that should be a really fantastic service. And rick just just just saying that you know whether it be um and this is tried. And tested you know whether it's walking running cycling it's already there the moment you're able to use technology to give people a measuring tool yeah it drives avidness. And that's what you that that's what we're after here we want to drive avenues of people to get out there and to play more and just enjoy gamer question there's more marketing let's say you've got ten thousand people signed up to i call for example and you're thinking well hold on these people aren't members of golf courses is there a strategy to start to target those golfers. And you might say well actually i've noticed you've played x golf course down the road your local golf club 10 times okay can we are you communicating that to the golf club is is that is that legal are you allowed to do that. Or is there a pathway of going this this golfer could actually benefit from joining this golf club they could save money because they're playing this golf course 30 times a year paying 30 quid a year. Or whatever it may be definitely we've already seen that so we had an example in the first few days of igolf joining the guy joined igloo of golf went to his club and said i've joined i golf i'm going to put a card in from handicap today.
And the pro well you play here every week anyway and you pay a green fee if you wanted a handicap why didn't you just join and straight away you went okay i'll join the golf club because actually now it's benefit about better value. For money but also we are looking at we're still relatively new it's it's in it's in its development. And we've got plans to create a platform for golf clubs to be able to advertise their offers and and actually start to sell themselves to these golfers that are out there that want to play golf they're probably playing their golf course correct without a shadow of that i mean. And of course there were gdpr rules that we are totally adhering to that sorry. So with data protection okay. So obviously we want to adhere to that so people would opt in and if they do then.
Then.
Their home address they can be connected then.
With golf clubs in their in their area golf clubs can reach out to them as we said as a platform to then.
Go why don't you come along. And and have a trial day you know have some fun at our place and there will be some golf clubs that will be doing some some eye golfer competition specific competitions just. For them brilliant i think that's the that's the net that needs to be kind of cast in that area golf clubs there's. So many golfers that are probably living. So close to the golf club that they could join are not doing. For whatever reason maybe they just don't know the benefits maybe they don't feel inclusive included you were talking about golf together yes that's right it's like together. And together in golf and and that's it we've got a golf club here you like playing golf let's do something together exactly. And it's almost like saying to the golf clubs as well look here's your opportunity and we're gonna we're gonna give you the group of people we're gonna put we've put these people together all in one space it's now up to you as a golf club to actually sell yourself in the right way because we all know how many benefits being a member of a golf club brings whether it be social aspect whether it be the competitive whether it be just that away from golf those friends friends that you make and and yourself coming up and being a junior through golf friends that we have for life as as golfers and it's just giving other people that opportunity and i think that's what's really important because there's people that have never experienced that if you don't know another golf club member are you ever going to walk through that door. And go i want to join but if you if you know people through a network and you've got a friend that you want to go and maybe try with you're far more likely to do it than do it on your own. So it's about bringing people together getting people out on a golf course and i golf just the conduit for for doing that right i've got some just signed up just done it he's got his card out of everything should have should have nudged jeremy in general i wanted to see thanks for joining my golf england's golf digital community you receive paint mount oh yeah there you go you ready you go hey look at how easy it was everybody yeah it took me i was being at rude. For three minutes but it was very easy. And seamless so congrats um i'm gonna ask some hard hitting questions okay right now we're a boom yes off the boom we've established that 30 000 new golfers joining golf clubs everything amazing i hear the term thrown about a lot. And i've never really used it in massive context like grow the game okay i'm sure you've heard it loads of times i'm guessing with england golf. And other governing bodies that is one of their main issues main main ambitions how is it done is there a pathway how do you how do you grow the game. And how do you keep people in the game well to start with you make it as inclusive as you can it's as simple as that okay you have to make the game embracing yeah to new people. And there would be three we would say we talk about a golfer's journey as having three specific sections leisure and recreational you heard me talk talk about earlier now that one tends to be looked after by fairly entrepreneurial folk who would be as i said that would be perhaps driving rangers adventure golf um crazy golf um top golf all of those types of places where no matter what size you are gender age you go along there. And as long as you've got some money they're going to welcome you. And to bring you along um now part of what what we must make sure happens is that there is a transition there is a good bridge between that those golfers that that are prevalent agreed. And incidentally of all ages and and and a great gender split as well something like 45 of all of those golfers are female which is brilliant amazing um it then.
Comes across to the next.
Bit which is the avid bit that we've now started to reach out towards now via eye golf. And with regards to them that that's really just a question of making sure that there are plenty of facilities which again there are very much green feed driven society driven where they have their own communities. And they get out for their own set of circumstances for the most decide they don't want to be a member of a golf club but they want to play lots and lots okay. So again as long as golf clubs are welcoming to those people that then.
Again golf is in a good place. And then.
You have the golf club membership um where you have which would work in tandem where um that that would be that the furthest part of the journey but that works in tandem with with the ab with the independent golfers in the middle where you must have um whether it's professional golfers or golf clubs being open to to anybody that wants to come and try the game as well and transition from that leisure and recreation and give it a go in in a slightly different way so come along and and bring your children and bring your family along what do you think that what do you think the obstacles are of more people coming that sounds a perfect pathway what do you see as being the obstacles of more people getting into the game i can see a couple. But i'd love to hear your thoughts well i'd like to hear what you think they are the first one yeah i think things like dress code i think the fact that you can go we talked about a lot on the podcast it's changing yes slowly. But surely i might say you can go to a driving range. And wear whatever you want i feel like that next.
Step from there straight to a golf club is almost too severe like you need smart tailored trousers you need tailored shorts you need new lens socks at some places like you get frowned upon if you went in a hoodie. Or you went in the wrong clothing it is changing i don't know how much you guys get to say in that because obviously you're just a governing body you don't own the golf courses as such do you think that's an obstacle. And then.
My other one i honestly think from just driving range adventure golf pitch. And put straight to 18 holes of golf there's too big a jump agree with that it's way too big a job just a quick on your second point i completely agree and i've got a little anecdotal come on too about how he said range is fun an 18 hole golf course is quite daunting. And quite big with dress code i agree with you that dress code probably should be more relaxed but is that actually a barrier because there's a new golf that goes to the range once. Or twice can even know a dress code is a thing i think yeah because even when let's say. For example i went to um i went to a golf event last week with my wife she asked me what can i wear like what what am i allowed to wear can i wear this can i wear trainers can i do that. And it was like i do believe non-golfers. Or even brand new golfers understand there's a level of dress code you need to abide by let's say but i don't know if it's super clear and if it is super clear is it too strict can it be more relaxed potentially. But we look if dress code has always been an issue in golf go back 100 years when women used to have to wear a big long skirt that didn't show their ankles and a corset and all this to play golf and then.
I can't remember the lady's name who was the first lady to wear trousers on a golf course. And that was like 109 years ago. And look at look at where we get so we to expect golf clubs to change overnight he's almost impossible it's a 100 changes it's little bits and we're seeing that change because it's without doubt changing it like oh i know it is um we're in a we're in a point now where it is definitely i just don't know if that's being portrayed enough potentially. But i'll also throw in that you know there are 1800 golf clubs in england. And you will have all the way through to you know championship open championship golf clubs of course you'll have a whole spectrum of clubs. And and i think something there you know you heard me speak about it getting that transition right from how do you help people transition from the driving range to a golf course you know. And you can mix them both in you know 18 holes transitioning straight from the driving range to 18 holes is a huge jump probably too big. And wouldn't be enjoyable so do you do six hole there are six whole golf courses there are nine hole golf courses there are golf courses with loops uh loops of nine holes. But also likewise that there is a learning process with regards to dress code. And i think what you'd find is there are. So many golf courses now that if you that they're actually linked in some way to driving ranges that driving range can give you advice with regards to where to go. And when you get there you'll see that pretty much there is a fairly relaxed approach to dress code there will be other golf courses you know it might be. So much as a third or 25 percent of those 1800 where you would still be expected to potentially wear a pair of trousers and a collar and and a jumper but you know what the majority golf course is now they're pretty relaxed do you ever encounter a meeting with a golf course of that caliber. And they're asking you how do we get more members. Yet they have these outrageously strict kind of dress codes or entry level do you have you ever encounter anything absolutely i i think let's come back to what we spoke about about that you know this being a perfect storm. For with regards to goal for a a perfect rainbow for golf there were far too many golf clubs certainly in england. But uh but i'll say across the uk that were had just found themselves in this land of mediocrity they didn't really understand why they were losing members. But they were. And and for 10 years golf club membership was was diminishing. And it was just happening it was almost like this creep the gulf was just just leaving. And they couldn't understand why and it's really taken this pandemic to wake them up because all of a sudden they've had an influx of younger people um sometimes you know of more women coming into their golf clubs and and it's been wonderful to see up and down the country of watching and looking at some of these golf clubs turning around and going you know what this is great that we have this interest from younger people from more women. And they're changing because of what's happening to them because they had got stuck in mediocrity but there are enough good members now turning around. And going you know what let's move with the times let's become more relevant let's be more embracing to more people yeah do you think almost the power's gone almost back to the golfer over the golf clubs because i remember back in the day like joining fees were a massive flight i don't really see anywhere with joining fees they might actually come weirdly back in again because in some places demand is. So high right now but i feel like you know back in the day where i managed to hear stories where golfers would go to a golf club try and join with a check ready to go and they get turned down for one reason or another obviously that feels like it's definitely changed it's just it's just as a i just feel there's something in the middle section i think like i never really see a six-hole green fee. For example right it's really changing and i think golf clubs themselves are sort of like looking at how they can adapt. So we've seen a massive rise in the number of nine-hole rents being played now at the start of the year we knew why because green fee and time on the golf course were. So short people were teeing off at like 6pm correct. And also some golf clubs because they had so many members that they had to get out onto the golf course were saying you can play nine holes a day we can't get you out. So we're having two nines people are just going out. And playing we want to get as many people on the course so nine whole green fees went nine whole rounds went up nine holes as well is that hour. And a half that you can go out. And just play i like nine holes it's brilliant it's 10 18. it's quick you can enjoy it you don't feel like you're correct without it being like that that is the downside of golf obviously i've played golf all my life i'm lucky enough to have played it. But 18 holes is a graft isn't it it's like i said four hours on the golf course give. Or take you got to get to the golf club get there early for your tee time it's it's a long it's a day it feels like a full day i think don't forget this pandemic has also seen a lot of partners whether that's wives. Or husbands turn around and go oh gosh a round of golf isn't seven hours then.
Yeah because having tea times. And having to leave from the golden globes yeah. So that's that's ruined a couple of perceptions but still yeah. But the fact that people now can go. And play nine holes and we see more golf clubs offering nine whole competitions nine whole rounds we've had an influx of nine hole ratings for golf courses because people want to put a nine-hole score in for handicap purposes brilliant and i think there's a lot of discussion going on in in the wider game around the world about inclusion of six holes. And and how far you push that because it's three holes around of golf that was a discussion that i've had recently. And and have you even got into the swing of things in three holes to be able to say that's a round of golf but six holes is a nice number. And you could handicap over six holes so there's almost that challenge as well yeah we've just had the challenge of whs. But how can we continue to use this modernization to drive the modern game that is i swear i think we need to go more with this kind of short. And snappier versions of golf because the driving range can have. So much fun chipping putting comp on that on the practice facilities but then.
Like 18 holes can feel a slog i feel like if you did. And i'm gonna copyright this idea you're hearing it here on the podcast first quick six you had to play in two balls ready golf and it's an hour done now we get you get a shot penalty per minute i don't i think quick six would just like fly rick's quick six i'll go. For a quick six right but again and it's easy it's like 10 pounds or whatever it may be it's only a tiny step up from from driving range prices once you bought 100 potentially i remember they've kind of died off a little bit i remember that time when there used to be two flags in a green all play golf yeah yeah yeah. But if it's time now but have like a hole that's slightly bigger like have a hole a quick six hole that's maybe twice as big as a normal hole or have it somewhere that's just you play off the forward t's but it's just a quick six so we're just gonna fly around and and i don't know i just think there's there's that little pathway. And i think honestly if that was advertised. And really pushed i mean it's a real shame in this country we don't you know i've seen in other countries where like floodlight golf is is huge over in like we had floodlight golf over here it must just be the power. Or this cost of electricity or whatever but i think through through the certainly the the winter months when it obviously goes dark a lot earlier quick six quick six after after work can you quick six at six there you go six in the morning. Or six at night i think we what you'll see though is the first incredible resurgence in golf it's not just the playing which has got a resurgence the amount of um investment that is now coming back into golf we've seen. For the first time as well there are golf courses that are being purchased um. And they're being purchased with with different thoughts in mind it's how do we create this situation where we get people round quickly we create different types of membership we sell we use some of the land. For creating maybe a a top golf top tracer facility so we have that driving range fun we then.
Have a really good f b we have a you know a great restaurant or cafe or whatever and then.
You have two loops of six or or or nine holes there just to get people around for exactly what you're saying to keep that fun and to do it within a good time question then..
For you jeremy well for both but probably more for you jeremy but obviously he said last year we had a record number of people joining golf clubs. And then.
This year as well i think we said it was the end of march where people could start playing golf again. So therefore. people joined how do you think we keep those new golfers hopefully once this pandemic's gone which it seems to be touchwood kind of slowly doing how do we keep those new kind of casual golfers engaged is there anything we need to do do you think all you guys need to do how do you see that happening yeah yeah. For sure well i think first off any of the ones that became members then.
It's the golf clubs as you said you know we're the governing body. So we're able to influence we have a team of 20 club support officers that go out and work every day in all the counties up and down the country trying to help golf clubs with regards to what their value proposition is whether that's just playing their golf course from a green feed perspective. Or a value proposition of being a member so golf clubs have a duty of care to themselves to make sure that their value proposition is in the best place that they have you know it's value. For money that there's a great uh there is that great social aspect there the right amount of competitions. And so on so that's a way we can make sure we retain the membership with regards to the other aspect the participation side of things then.
Then.
I think that that that's wider. And i think there is g you're going to see more investment as there is now with regards to making golf how can are there different versions still keeping the integrity of the game. But are they slightly shorter versions of the game top tracer coming into its own more top golfs making the equipment companies coming out with with with the latest. And greatest as i know that you you trial i think there's the duty of care from everybody all stakeholders in the game. But it's definitely there there's an energy level right there to try to keep as many of those people but even if we don't keep them with it the main sport we have had so many people come in and again i come back to this point that it's the number one second sport so that's a great place to be because you know what when they stop playing potentially their rugby their cricket their football invariably they get a bit older and they get you know what you know i want to get out there on the golf course that is my exercise i'm not a gym person i go i go to the golf course makes sense it's. And it's so nice to be speaking in a position that's that's so strong for golf at the moment who would have ever thought you know last march when all this kicked off never did we think we'd be sitting here. And going the golf is in the best place it's probably been. For forever potentially i mean i don't apart from maybe when the tiger boom back in like the late 90s like this is right now that the the second biggest boom in golf i'd like to say it's great to be in that position what you guys are doing to be able to bring handicapped to non-golfers to be able to grow the games bringing people together those pathways the fact that we've got fantastic driving ranges certainly around the world at the moment. But certainly here in england like working with like do you like do you work with top tracer. Or anything or is that yeah yes we do yeah right things like that because they bring. So much value to non-golfers or recreational golfers who like to say second or even third sports as you mentioned jeremy and they'll start to really grow in love with golf and i think when we are in a great position it's just how do we continue it. And keep growing it's about growing that love if you love something whether it's football or golf if if you've got a passion for it you're more likely to even if you might step away you'll come back to it and and and that's what we're sort of seeing we're seeing people that played golf at 10 11 12 who then.
Went on and did something else they played football. Or qriket and then.
Now we're coming back to the game we always we've always had players that played rugby like rugby lads that played rugby until they were sort of 35 realized that they couldn't get out of bed on a saturday morning after they played rugby on a uh sorry on a sunday morning after they couldn't get out of bed. And they've gone i need to find something else to do because eventually i ain't going to get out of bed on a monday morning. And then.
It jeopardizes work so they start playing golf and actually because we can then.
Get them into the game they've got a love. For it they've built that love up over time they might have only watched it on tv they might have watched the open or the women's or whatever it might have been the masters is always the one that people sort of like never interested in goal. But they'll sit and watch the masters and it's that spark and if you can get that. And and maintain that and then.
Bring it and drop it into people's lives at different point when it's right for them then.
You've got a golfer because by the time they're 35 45 they're a golfer and they're involved in golf they're a member of a golf club and if you remember a golf club at 45 the chances are you're probably still going to be a member of a golf club when you're 85. exactly because you never leave because a golf club gets the hooks in tea. And that's it you you've been on a committee you've been captain you've done everything you've done everything and then.
You it feels like it's home but it's like you mentioned that not only club but all your friends are there like your friends. And something that we should say as well is is that some of the things you asked about top tracer um is the fact that we're not only a governing body that just sits sits away from um from golf clubs we have our own golf club we have whittle spa where we have a 36 hole golf complex in folks circa some 800 acres that we look after in in lincolnshire 900 members that we look after that we want to nurture to give them the best experience. But also it is the home of england golf. So that's where any member of a golf club in england they have a little share if you like that of that particular golf complex we only put in at the beginning of july we put top tracer into our own range there because we wanted to improve the experience and we just knew that it was a no-brainer to be honest to have people coming along. And to be able to again it's this this requirement for technology and to be able to measure what you're doing how far am i hitting it how well am i hitting it um we've got that in incidentally you'll be uh interested to know as well that we we have plans for a six-hole short course there is well there we're trying to lead by example. And we're trying to experiment ourselves so that when we talk to golf clubs they get the fact that we're going through an experience as they are well you need that don't you i that's really absolutely you need substance you almost need that test dummy golf club as such skill this is what's worse this hasn't worked you know you get more respect. For that as well we can't we can't tell golf clubs what's the best thing to do if if we can't do it if we don't have a have a play around with it. And work out what's the right thing we can't go to other golf clubs and say actually this really works because we've never tried it yeah. So it's it's about using wood all to to develop that and the national golf centre to create sort of like a best practice model but also somewhere where people would love to come yeah. And and really love to spend time and and just and soak up the atmosphere and we had the golf week national golf week down at woodall spa last week an hour we had four or five five five six events i think our team they were there. For five days and it was bonkers the amount of golfers that were around everybody happy smiling luckily it was a nice week. And the weather was good to us. But so many smiling faces whether that be from young juniors through to our senior series finals and people just enjoying the experience of coming to woodhouse bar yeah to be fair they were just they're normal members members handicapped members it's not this the week before the home internationals yeah we hosted the home internationals at woodhall spa. So it is just showing that golf is that inclusive game that one week it can be that the best players in the in the uk coming along from all four home nations. And the next.
Week it's it's it's everyday golf club members coming and enjoying the same place well for me i want to thank you for all your service because england golf for me in my career in golf has been very influential um things like the golf foundation i used to go out and deliver golf foundation classes to local schools when i was a pro at mia. And to to see that infrastructure and to be able to bring those new or non-golfers completely non-golfers into golf and get them to love that and then.
Even more recently going to jcb. And my girls were having lessons with the golf foundation pros that i mean just amazing what you do. And i think it's probably it doesn't get the recognition it deserves because i think it's not an easy job to grow a game that's still established. And somewhat sucking traditions at some levels but i suppose you've got to you've got to respect the traditions you've got to respect everything that's gone forth but also kind of shoehorn it into a direction that's going to continue its longevity into the many many many years into the future. So thank you very for everything you do. And you and the whole team because i'm sure like i say it's a huge team that goes behind it uh well done on putting the world handicap system into play and even like say this um the new handicap system the eye golf i think it's a fantastic initiative. And everyone listening and watching who hasn't who wants a handicap and not signed up join guy mine's three point four so i'll take that have you already done it i've done it it's come up yeah three point four that's about does it. So i thought he's working on this podcast he's just been getting i'll just be getting a handicap yeah be going putting a score in this afternoon yeah um thank you. For coming on any any other things you need to you want to cover anything that you well thanks rick just well again we'd like to say thanks and and thank you to yourself as well because all of us stakeholders in the game it is all of our responsibility to do the best by the game. And and what you do the peer review is is just great because it is an inclusive game. And it is fun yeah. And that's the best thing about golf it's a sport and it's fun so thank you no problem at all um thank you. And uh i'm general i'm sure you'll be recognized in many more many more halfords moving forward and jeremy get get ready for the fame it's gonna be big it's gonna it's gonna get it's gonna get there i can imagine jeremy walking out with like sunglasses coming out of here. And like jumping in like a limousine and going getting a helicopter screaming straight into the fandom um right awesome thanks. For listening to episode 91 yeah. And uh we'll be back next.
Week with a couple of banger guests an absolute monster of a guest and another good guest as well two monsters shall see you next.
Week on the rickshaws golf show.
