One of the WORLDS best Golf Coaches! (Claude Harmon III) - EP164

All right guys Happy New Year welcome to 2023 uh this is episode 164 of the rickshaws Golf Show podcast. And today.

We have a guest episode yep I look at your face was Clint clinched really over your fence I can't even speak. But we fixed the clench uh first off hopefully everyone happy New Year Happy New Year oh this is a terrible start terrible stuff I'll keep it all in though this is the start of 2023 we didn't want yeah um we are releasing today.

An episode that I filmed over in Florida. And Jupiter with Claude Harmon yes the third now Claude has an incredible pedigree in the World of Golf his dad well first off himself he coaches some of the biggest names in World Golf DJ is one of his biggest clients Dustin Johnson started working with him again big names. And many other players his dad is Butch Harman Legend Who famously coached tiger when he first hit the scene back in the early before 2000s yeah. And worked with tiger for a decent length of time yeah butchers also started working with Ricky Fowler again over a bit of absence they've had. And claude's Grandad won the Masters and I believe 1971. golfer family crazy now they're based currently at the Floridian Golf Club over in Jupiter which I've got to break 75 from there coming out very soon but the day after I filmed that we sat down with Claude on the balcony of the clubhouse which is absolutely spectacular it's looking over the harbor it's beautiful. And we dive into the world of of Claude Hammond because his story his background his life his passions he's very passionate about golf coaching and improving um interestingly in this podcast now and we spoke about this a few times how he doesn't believe that um his own ability as a golf coach he basically says he's not very good a goal a golf so he kind of says that he reckons he plays off about 10 11 handicap left-handed he says I can I know what I need to do to my students. But I'm not particularly great at doing it myself that makes sense and that goes back to a lot of things that I've picked up on in the past like obviously I know how to improve golfer swing and how to make them better sometimes I'll see if I've had a bad break 75 I'm not listening to him he doesn't know what he's talking about but it's still totally different well that's the thing I think it does even though as I completely agree with that you don't need to be an amazing golfer to be a great golf coach it does also sound a bit odd when you go you're off 11 you think God I thought it'd be a scratch handicapper. But it doesn't matter and like you said if that was the case if your coach had to be better than you then.

Who would coach the tour Pros who's gonna coach Tiger Woods in his prime because no one's better than him. So it's more about your knowledge and also one of the big things when you get to that Elite level I guess as well any level but certainly that Elite level where these guys playing for millions of dollars it's how they communicate and how the relationship they have with the coach as well it's all about communication because also uh Claude was telling the stories which you'll listen to in a moment how he used to sit in in the coaching sessions when Butch his dad was coaching time oh wow that was like when he was a young kid's that after this podcast as well. And we're going to release it as a special podcast only exclusive video. So if you've not um subscribed to the YouTube channel yet the rickshaws Golf Show podcast channel do. So hopefully by this point we're over 200 000 subscribers there's going to be a video out where Claude Harmon gives me a lesson nice straight after this podcast. So it might be released the next.

Couple of days but stay tuned for that and that's going to be obviously video only it's not going to make. For a great audio podcast and so without further Ado um let's dive into it this fantastic episode with Claude Harmon III filmed at the Floridian enjoy well Claude thank you for this wonderful opportunity to sit down with you here and I'm I'm not saying that because I'm here right now The Floridian I think it might be my favorite place on Earth yeah it's it's a really it's a special place you know I'm incredibly lucky to to get to come here. And work here every day and um yeah it's it's a really really great spot the golf course is good the location the weather. And uh yeah we're lucky if you're listening to this make sure you check out the YouTube video because where we are right now we're at the back of the clubhouse overlooking this Harbor uh I got a chance to play the golf course yesterday. And again thank you for selling that out unbelievable the golf course is unbelievable it's a fun Golf Course listen there are there are a lot more difficult golf courses in this part of the world you know kind of Jupiter South Florida you know you've got Seminole you've got medalist which is tough that you've played you've got the Bears Club which is really really tough I think it here at Floridian we've got a nice mix of holes it's always in in really good shape. And uh you know they they tend to keep the greens in fantastic conditions and and that's why you know the guys that that play on tour um you know they loved it Ricky you know Ricky Fowlers played here at my dad's in town for the pro member and he played yesterday and had a chance to Birdie the last hole to shoot 60 and made Bogan shot 62 and then.

Went out again today.

And shot 62 again so a little 62 60 62 from Slick Rick so he's a favorite for this weekend's tournament I think. So and then.

You have a few other tour players down here practicing right yeah I mean DJ's a member here Brooks is a member here um Ken Duke who used to play the the PGA tour now plays the senior tour. Or the champions tour they call it um he's here Gary Woodland's a member here so it's nice it's um you know this is kind of Ground Zero. For tour players um you know we've probably got 40 guys Within you know 10 miles of where we are right now that play the tour. So it's great and you know it's fun and um you know when the guys are home the guys play a lot together I mean. And that's always fun when when the guys are home they'll go out. And they'll play I think the guys um they play more than they practice when they're home yeah. And I think that's something that that everybody listening could could you know benefit from they play more than they practice. And I think. So many golfers are practicing way more than they're playing yeah. And it's almost like they're studying for a test that they never they never get a chance to take yeah that's right yeah I think you're right I think you see a lot note we see it certainly in the UK because we don't have these sort of setups you see a lot more driving range golfers he'll go to the driving range. And beat balls off a mat and it's a way of practicing it is you know. And sometimes it's the only way that people can practice. But there isn't anything better than being out on the golf course putting yourself in some situation operations even if you're throwing a couple of practice balls down and learning how to score and how to get round I think it's something that I certainly kind of have been trying to work. And I've seen more benefit of that over the last couple of years when I've played a little bit more because you can't playing golf isn't on the driving range is it well I said um you know on my podcast this week what I do now with players that come in you know let's say a player is going to come in. And spend the full day with me that I've never met before regardless of their handicap level what I started doing a couple years ago and I think it has been hugely beneficial. For me as an instructor is we start the lesson by going out on the golf course first yeah. So we kind of have a a five hole Loop that's right around our our our Academy building so the third we play three through eight and we're gonna get in that we're going to get a par 5 a drivable Par Four two par threes. And then.

Some par fours and so it's been really helpful for me to to go out on the golf course and watch a player actually play golf as opposed to starting on the driving range because once I go out and I watch what the player does on the golf course that's going to give me a pretty good idea of what I'm going to see on on the driving range. But I think a lot of golfers are. So driving range Centric that and I yes not everybody has the luxury to get out. And play all the time but if you do have the availability to play golf. And you are serious about your golf if you can find that balance to where you're playing as much as you're practicing. And then.

In an ideal world you would be playing more than you're practicing but I think in 2022 it's the opposite I think most people spend the majority of their time on the driving range. And you know the guys that I work with professionally when we're hitting balls and we're practicing we're practicing and hitting balls for something specific we're not just hitting balls to get exercise we're not just hitting balls for the sake of it so if they're hitting it really really good if DJ's home and we're working on something we're hitting it really good he's going to go yo let's get out on the golf course. And see what it looks they want to get out and see what it's like on the golf course and I think a lot of golfers are the opposite if they play badly they just want to get back to to the range the range is their comfort level it's their safe place where the best players in the world they just want to play they don't want to be on the driving range they want to play golf well they want to be able to test themselves um I just thought when you were saying all that then.

Obviously you do teach Dustin Johnson you've just mentioned that maybe a private jet might be going across the helicopter in a minute um obviously you teach Dustin Johnson you started working again back with the Brooks kepka um other top Pros that you play Pat Perez. And then.

I work with two girls on the lpj tour Marina Alex and padri um and Nana Karan I mean she's got nine nine. Or ten ends in her last name so and you've also obviously worked with Ernie else when you won yeah five years. And Ricky Fowler did some work with Ricky you've done some work with Jimmy Walker you know kind of the first player I really started working with um professionally was Trevor. And woman Trevor right to this day is one of my you know dear friends. And you know Trevor and I both kind of started our professional careers around the same time yeah I was lucky enough this summer at the Open Championship to um have dinner um with Adam Scott. And Trevor and you know I've known Adam and Trevor for you know going on 20-something years we all kind of started on the European tour yeah at the same time you know Adam was a rookie on the European tour Trevor was you know just starting out. So that kind of knowing those guys for so long when we do get together sometimes you're like man we're you know I'm 53 they're in their 40s you know we've all got kids I mean. But when we think back to you know flying around in on the European tour back when it really was the European tour yeah you'd go to Dubai. And Qatar but other than that it was the old school European tour you know French Open Portuguese open you know these four five week stints in Europe which you know I I miss that. So much it was. So much fun back then.

Forest of Arden oh yeah yeah I remember we were going out it's one of my favorite stories. So Trevor emblemen's old caddy a guy named Neil Wallace who he was on his back when he won the Masters Trevor was last off in the Pro-Am on a Wednesday at the forest of Arden it's about 45 50 degrees it just looks like it's just going to absolutely just start chucking it down with rain. And we're last off and so Trevor's got one umbrella and he's in a terrible mood as per usual because you know he's just such a perfectionist and it's just really started to rain and Neil and I are kind of underneath the umbrella. And Trevor hits this iron shot and we hand them the umbrella so now we're you know typical Tour player walks off with the umbrella we're standing there and he takes the divot and it's been raining for you know 10 15 minutes now and he just takes the divot and throws it straight back and it hits Neil Wallace right in the center of the chest mud and everything and just quietly just to himself to nobody just said Neil just said man I knew I should have studied harder. And stayed in school so I wouldn't have to do this. But that was the old school European tour days where you know there were a bunch of tournaments in Scotland there were a bunch of tournaments in Ireland there were a bunch of tournaments in the UK. And then.

All the stuff you know in Continental Europe Canary Islands and all of those tournaments so um what what I was going to get to there obviously you mentioned the list of names that many of our listeners. And viewers will know of some obviously a huge amount of major winners we had a little tour around your performance center here. And between your dad and yourself and the coaches you've you've made some Champions right you've had I mean how many majors between you we've been I mean I've been a part of seven major championships. And I've got to think my dad is got to be close to 20. well the answer obviously obviously the time with tiger tiger. And then.

You know all the different players you know the bunch that he won with Phil and um yeah I mean it's something that that it's I think it's a part of of our family's history I mean obviously having a grandfather that won a major championship the Masters you know in the late 40s. And then.

To to you know the fact that my grandfather won the Masters and then.

I've I was at Augusta. And when tiger won his first Masters and then.

You know I never thought that I'd follow in the footsteps of my dad and then.

To remember 2004 Trevor and Mom and he qualified for the Masters it was the first time I'd been there as a coach. And to walk you know onto the driving range at Augusta you know with you know the family name that I've got you know it is just such a cool thing. And then.

Dj winning you know in the coveted years and um yeah you competitive golf I think is is been a part of you know certainly my family you know my dad. And myself my grandfather but all my uncles I mean competitive golf has been part of our family's DNA oh of course I mean like saying in the before Studio where you've got the reception area your mission was to fill the wall with all these Champions. And you pretty much achieved that to the point where you know you're now needing to put your Nanny to put pictures down in the hallway later you know further down now with even more wins that have come this year but what what I wanted to get on I really do want to dive into the kind of history of what really obviously dad coach. And everything else but why are you going to coach in a minute let's say a regular golfer okay 15 handicapper. And they've plucked up the courage to book a lesson with you and I say courage because there's got to be some level of worry and anxiety how do how do you put them at ease because surely you've gone out. For the first time and you standing there with the history you have and the pedigree you come from how does a 15 handicapper not be stood over that shot it's shaking like crazy because they're in your kind of presence you know yeah listen I mean we're not curing cancer here I mean I'm I'm a golf instructor my job is to help people you know play a sport with a ball. And a stick right so it's not rocket science it's not you know as complicated as I think people think it is. And my dad has always said that golf is a pretty simple game that tends to baffle. And confuse smart people um and what do you think about it it is really it's a game with a ball. And a stick and the object of the game of it is to get the ball in the hole in the least amount of strokes. And I think sometimes people forget that it is a game yeah it is it that's why they have a scorecard it's there's an object to try. And see how quickly you can change I think my job as an instructor Rick has always been I think I've been successful because I never played golf at any competitive level I was I was actually going to come on tonight I didn't know that the background I never played golf. But golf wasn't cool when I was growing up like it is now you know golf when I was growing up my dad was a worked at a country club. And wore Sans about slacks and you know there were no cool people playing golf there was no people like Tiger Woods. Or Rory McIlroy I mean Greg Norman was like the rock star of of my generation right he was cool whatever. But you know Larry Mize wasn't cool right Ian woosnam wasn't cool oh come on I draw the line there they were unbelievable go. For so growing up golf was you know still very much a rich white person sport. So it was a country club sport I. So I didn't play a lot of golf growing up my dad didn't put any pressure on me to play golf I think that mainly came from the fact that his father won the Masters. And he was a good player. And tried to play the tour and I think because he felt. So much of that pressure on him so I think I tried out. For my high school golf team in the ninth grade and it was a nine hole um qualifier. And I I guarantee I didn't break 50. really and I just didn't play but I always liked being around my dad when he was giving lessons. And in the summertime I would watch my dad teach and my grandfather was still alive. And they did a my dad. And all of his brothers who were all you know instructors. And Club Pros they used to do a a summer golf school. And so when I was I think it was 15. Or 16 my dad said hey you know do you want to come up. And you know hang out and work so my job was to set the range up. And my dad was one of the real early adopters to video yeah I ran the video camera. So to be honest with you unlike a lot of instructors Mike background for being a golf instructor is I just watched my dad my uncles my grandfather teach. So just basically watched them give golf lessons and were you interested at that point though I wasn't interested in golf per se. But I was always interested in you know I liked the problem-solving aspect of it I like the fact that you know. And in watching my dad my dad is always tried to make things incredibly simple. So when I used to watch him give golf lessons I was always you know surprised at how basic. And simple it was. For someone of his stature yeah um. And then.

I just I had such a ringside seat because around the time I started helping my you know my dad and my uncles um in golf lessons that was right around the time my dad started teaching tour players yeah the first player my dad worked with was Steve elkington then.

He started working with Davis Love. And then.

Went on to Greg Norman my uncle's in at that time in the late 80s early 90s you know my uncle Dickie who passed away he was working with Curtis Strange. And Lanny Watkins and Brennan Crenshaw my Uncle Craig um was the head pro at Oak Hill Country Club where they've had you know a million Majors Ryder cups. And he was Jeff sluman's only coach started coaching him as a junior. And then.

Jeff went on and won the PJ my Uncle Billy my dad's youngest brother caddied for Jay Haas for over 20 years Bill Haas is named after you are like. So I was always around professional golf too it's in your family I mean. So I think when you're around. And you're on tour I was on tour. And have been on tour the majority of my life yeah you know my mom said that you know two weeks after I was born I was in the back of a station wagon while my dad was playing the PGA Tour. But I was always at tour events always on the Range you know people like Freddy Couples you know I'm 53 Freddy's in his mid-60s I've known Freddy Couples pretty much the majority of my life right I mean I've known Freddie since I was in middle school. And high school so all of these players I just was always around them yeah. And you know we would go to the maze the Masters every year and I remember going to the Masters when my grandfather was still alive. And him taking me to the Champions locker room and having breakfast and you know Sam Sneed and you know Arnold Palmer and Gary Player and Byron Nelson and wow sevi and all of these people were around. So I've just always been around that environment I honestly don't think I could have had the career Rick that I've had having no background in playing golf if I wasn't around the tour as much as I was of course because I think I was around the tour. So much I was able to kind of know what the tour was like what what it was what to expect. And supposedly not you knew what players wanted out of it well my dad always said listen if you're going to work with tour players you can't guess right you have to be right that's right because this is their livelihood process right. So this is what they do. For a living so if a tour player or a player that is playing competitively comes to you. And that's their their the way they make a living he's like you can't be wrong yeah you have to make the right calls. And yeah. And how do you do that all the time do you some do you sometimes rather than guess say I'll get back to you on something. Or listen I mean I you get it wrong right you know I've I've worked with players to where you know I've I've prided myself on working with players. And and helping players but I have definitely worked with players that didn't get any better when I worked with them I worked with you know for about six months this year with garakigo and I wish I'd had longer I think I probably could have helped him more than I did. But he didn't really get any better in the six months that I worked with him and that pisses me off yeah I mean it makes me mad that yeah I wish I would have had more time. But then.

I look at the time that I had and I was like I should have done a better job because that's that was my job yeah there's always. But someone like that what would you have done differently I don't know but I should have helped him more than I did. But big benefits of what we were doing I felt like we were really on the right path um he told me what he wanted to work on he was a big you know Garrick is you know he put He plays left-handed he's a big hooker he said he wanted to fade the golf ball. And get a little bit more to a controllable shape but his natural shape was a draw. But as the player he came to me and said listen I want to fade the golf ball yeah. So we worked on Fading the golf ball and that was something that was tough. For him to do inevitably he eventually said listen I just want to go back to drawing it I wish that like I said I wish that I had had more time to to spend with them. But yeah you you get it wrong sometimes you you you make bad calls. But I'm lucky in that I feel like I've in my career I've made more good calls than I have bad calls um I mean it's quite it's quite interesting I'd love to put your brains on this I think I think I know the answer. But it was it did you ever find it challenging almost a little bit being in the shadow of your dad. And his name I said there are still people in 2022 I'm 53 years old. And I've been coaching pretty much non-stop on all the various tours around the world since around 2000 2001. so I've been doing this for the better part of two decades and there were still people that don't think I know anything think that all the players I work with I just get handed them to them by my dad. And I'm I'm just lucky and how do you feel about that at this point do you walk into your office that you showed me earlier with all the pictures listen at this point it's almost you know. For me it's comical you know there are a couple of reporters that you know harp on about that you know. And stuff like that I'm like mate if you it's always the Hank Haney quote right you're entitled to your own opinion but you're not entitled to your own facts right so listen I I had a I had a ringside seat for the 10 years that tiger and my dad were together yeah. And I saw a tiger in 1993 the first golf lesson he ever took from my dad I videoed that golf lesson I watched I watched 10 years of those two together yeah right I fundamentally believe that the work that my dad did with tiger is the best that tiger has ever swung the club. And I believe it's also probably the best that anybody has swung the club but tiger then.

Fired my dad and went to work with hankaney and played unbelievable golf right you can't now I have an opinion I think the golf swing that my dad. And tiger were working on was I like it better than the one that Hank. And tiger work on but you can't look at what Hank and tiger did. And say it was better. Or worse than what my dad did. So you know you can always look at people. But when you look at Players I think that I've helped more players than I've hurt. And you know it took me listen imposter syndrome is real yeah right. And I had that for a long time I felt like I was an imposter because you know I did work with a lot of the same players that my dad worked with um did I get those players on my own no did he say hey will you help me with this player yes. But anybody thinks that a 20-year career that I've had is based off of players playing. For a living having my father say go work with my son and I'm what I do. And they're going to continue to do it out of some blind loyalty to my father just not going to happen as you mentioned before these these guys are playing. For the livelihood they're not gonna just if they don't like what you're saying it's not it's not gonna work so listen I I I I was very lucky in that I had a tremendous amount of doors opened to me you know when your last name is Harman. And you choose to go into the same golf instruction business as you know Butch Harmon being your father and all of that your city you're on third base right you're being you're basically being put on third base and I always realized I never hit a triple to get there I was basically from a golf instruction standpoint I was born on third base yeah right. And my dad always has told me don't look it up right because you can do that yeah right you can my dad has always said to me you can up Talent you can take a great player. And mess it up so he would always say to me you have to when I was starting out as a young instructor he would pull me into his office. And just rip this out of me and beat me up and say I was I watched you teach today.

And that was horrendous. And you need to see things better you need to see things faster the player you worked with today.

Struggled. For too long and he would go and it was watching you what try. And impress this student with all these fancy words and stuff like that he said if you can't fix the problem. And if you can't fix the problem fast and see things and figure out what you need to do he said you need to find a new job. And that is something that sticks with me every single day of my life when I teach. And it's something that I say to the players I work with and the the coaches that I'm lucky enough to work with see things faster so I think I just I got lucky in that you know my dad is. So good at what he does. And I used to just sit and we in his studio in Vegas early 2000s you know we've got a studio we have four cameras we've got one face on one down the line one from behind the student and one from above and you know with the systems you can run all of them. So what I would do. And so my dad would always kind of be watching tiger hit balls or whatever the student he'd be kind of standing you know either down the line or looking straight at him and I turned the back camera on and then.

After we finished the day I'd go back in and watch the lessons and I'd look at what my dad was where his eyes were going. So I would watch him give a lesson so he'd be standing you know face on yeah you know you know basically straight across from tiger. And so and I'm looking at the back camera so what I would do is I would film kind of what his eyes were doing because you know when you're looking at a golf swing you're looking at that's right. So I would try and figure out what the hell he was looking at. And would he ever be able to explain that to you I never asked him and he always had one extra look that I could never figure it out but I would go in and I I would just spend hours watching what his eyes were looking at whether there was a pattern whether there was yeah. And and I kind of I mean he his eyes would scan the setup like like a computer. And he could do it really really fast yeah I remember going out to the the Titleist performance Institute Greg Rose. And Dave Phillips um you know who have you know just been Giants you know in my career but you know they would put everybody on 3D they used you know the amm 3D system and they would say that everybody that worked with your dad you know my dad is probably as non technology as you can get he's old school right his computer is his in his eyes yeah he's like listen I don't need a launch monitor to tell me what the player is doing I don't need a 3D to tell me I don't need a body track I you know he's been doing this. For six years he's a he's a personal one the guys at TPI would say that when my dad's players would come in and they'd get him on 3D and they would ask what they were working on. Or what my dad was trying to get him they would say dude your dad just isn't wrong he's just he's always trying to fix the problem. And the stuff he's trying to have the players work on it's it's the right stuff yeah. And we would look at it the tpis goes it looks like we'd look at it in 3D and they'd go the reason why butcher's trying to get him to do this is because he doesn't. So I've always tried to to emulate his ability to just say listen what's the problem yeah how are we going to fix the problem as quickly as we possibly can. And we need to fix it now and ever since you know my dad would have those conversations with me and he was tough on me. And it would beat me up I I decided I was just going to play a game with myself that everybody that comes in that I'm going to work with I play this game. And it's the five ball game okay. And in my head I I say to myself okay I watched the player hit shots I kind of you know I do the diagnostic okay tell me a little bit about your game what type of shape do you want one site once I hear the player tell me what they're working on what they're trying to do. And then.

Once I film them screen them get them on a launch monitor whatever technology I'm going to use I say to myself okay I've got all this data now. And I say all right in five swings I've got five they have to hear see or feel something that they haven't felt before and it needs to be audible that they hit a shot and go wow yeah. Or okay that feels really different. So oh that looks different look so I'm trying to play this game in my head that I say okay if I can do this in I mean I try. And do it in two. Or three and just say okay just do this. And see if it's different and then.

I can show them on video that's just because to me that's really important yeah right I think most golfers learn visually. So I try and say okay this is where you were when we started. And now we're three swings later and this is your impact position now yeah because that helps what you've said something. And then.

Rick what that allows me to do is if I can get the player to go okay that feels really different that's more solid okay now I'm taking a divot then.

It buys me time. But it also the student exhales they go okay I'm not dying I'm not drowning because that. So going back to your question you've talked to my life a life I was never ready I was never really good at golf. So to this day golf is difficult. For me I never come from golf instruction from the opinion or the the headspace that come on man just hit the draws because it's not easy it's hard for me so I think one of the reasons why I've been successful is I wasn't any good at golf. So I don't have an ego when it comes to equipment when it comes to strategy what I will do anything that I can do to try. And hit the golf ball better so I'll say to a student listen if we try this I promise you you will start to hit the golf ball better yeah right if you'll just stick with this. And I do a lot of what my dad does we basically just try. And figure out my dad has always said listen what is the cancer of the golf swing yeah what is the one thing that this player is doing that is causing all the others. And that was the other thing growing up my dad used to say to me listen fix one thing that changes all the others you've got to make the call as you look at this player. And he's like you've got to see it fast you've got to say okay what can I change right now that is going to fix all of the other things that I want to fix because I think that's where a lot of players get confused. And where I think a lot of instructors go wrong you know from your instruction background there's five. Or six things you want to change but if you try and change all of them individually at the same time to complicated the student the player just checks out they're like mate I I can't I can't do all of this stuff yeah. So I tried to think you know my dad's theory of the cancer. So I just started coming up with this theory that I had in my head is you know to me the golf swing is a game it's a it's a set of dominoes. But there is one Domino that a player is doing that causes the third fourth fifth Domino they're gonna crash. And you're and that's why the player hits a shot and they're like man I'm not trying to do that yeah I'm trying to do the opposite. But they tend to do one major thing in the golf swing. And The Dominoes just start going. So I started thinking into my head I was like okay what if I can reverse The Dominoes. So if I can change the one thing this player is doing that's causing all of the others then.

They start to fall in this in place in the same way that you don't have to work on them yeah the player then.

Just all of a sudden hey now that the backswing's better the down swings in a better position the input. But you're not thinking of any of those we're just changing what the backswing is doing. Or what your posture is doing. So I'm just in my head trying to play this constant game of can I reverse these dominoes. And get the dominoes going in a positive direction in the same way as right now they're going in a negative Direction. But I think because I never played golf. And aren't any good at golf I cheerlead more I care more yeah because I don't ever think that it's easy you can almost relate to him well 100 I mean. And that's why I still give golf lessons to normal regular people I mean it would be very easy at this point in my career to just say listen I don't work with anybody that isn't a scratch golfer yeah right if you want to come take a golf lesson. For me you have to have single digit handicap scratch golfer that's it they're all golf instructors that do that that work with players on tour I mean Sean Foley fools doesn't really work with a lot of 25 handicappers I can't imagine right fools works with great players this is Sean Foley by the way. For people listening so he doesn't give ladies clinics to beginning golfers right and he's earned that right right he he's earned that yeah. But I still when I'm not on the road on tour yesterday I had a golf lesson with a member here who's in his mid 70s who doesn't have a lot of flexibility doesn't and I like working with those players because it's like it's an even bigger puzzle right yeah because the majority of the stuff that I want him to do in the golf swing that will help him a lot of it physically he can't do a lot of it technically he doesn't have the skill set to do that. So it forces me as the instructor to say okay I'm dealing with not a great body not a lot of natural god-given Talent speed all of the things that you're I'm lucky enough to work with on tour right I've got formulas race cars right the court the cars are fast yeah right you know I'm you know Mercedes McLaren Red Bull those are the those are the cars the type of cars that that your DJ you Brooks I'm lucky enough to work with them. So the cars are pretty good yeah. So you can get in them. And maybe not even be the best driver and get those type of cars around the average golfer doesn't have a great car now so my job is to say okay with the limitations that you've got. And the skill set that you've got I still have to help you improve and I that's where I go back to the bad golfer that I still am I always go from it saying okay I have to fix this person they can't walk out of here not hitting it better no they they have to get better with a bad grip with bad flexibility with bad glutes. And all of the TPI stuff yeah yeah they've got all these things that are against them yeah I have to fundamentally help this player improve. So I'm guessing so let's say listener Watcher has the opportunity of having a lesson with you which I'm sure is very hard to come by if you've got money if you've got cash you can come take a golf lesson how much is a golf lesson um. For the members here at Floridian I am 300 an hour three thousand three hundred dollars that's more reasonable expenses I was expecting a few more decimal points a few more zeros in there non-members that aren't members here I think I'm 700. For 90 minutes I took all my lessons to 90 minutes rather than an hour because I think it gives me an opportunity it gives me more scope to work on of course work on more things. But also work on specific things longer who who is the most expensive coach in the world I think. For a long time is Mitchell Spearman good old Mitchell was like you know he was like five ten thousand dollars an hour what yeah Mitchell Spearman oh that's crazy I'm sure there was a there was a time when Hank Kaney was super expensive yeah I wasn't there I guess like I said they've earned the pedigree as you as you have. And this is I think you should wrote your price I think you're too cheap Claude actually I actually should um the other thing I wanted to kind of dive into you've mentioned a couple of times that you're not a particularly good golfer what does that what is that what have you got handicap oh God no I mean I play golf. So rarely um I'm playing golf we have a tournament here over the weekend the Floridian Pro member it's every December and I'm playing this year I'm played a round of golf probably in over a year so now part of it is. But you must be you single figures no I mean at a push I'm I'm a eight. Or a 10. that's the single figures yeah I don't know about that it's not very good my body is bad I had back surgery in I had a microdiscectomy in 2011. yeah um I have I was the poster child at when TPI was just starting out I'd go to all I'm on The Advisory Board I'd go to all the seminars. And they were going through all their movement screens you know internal hip rotation. And I'd get up and they'd do the internal hip rotation screen on me. And everybody thought it was a joke. And so Greg and Dave you know used to have to go guys he's not kidding his hips only Ian only internally rotates two degrees on his left hip right you're not the best dancer so my body was bad. And I couldn't physically get my body to do a lot of the things I have all of this information in my head yeah. But I can't get my body to do any of it. So I'm working with a body that isn't great so I can't practice a lot because it hurts my back but what I've done is when I do try. And play um I've tried to make it as easy as possible I mean I don't carry a five iron anymore yeah I've gone to all hybrids. And you know in the longer irons I've gone to a ton of Loft I've gone to you know I'm a one-length guy um I use you know one length heads I mean you know they might as well be called Cobra shovels because they're. So big um I'm trying to do as many things as I can to make golf easier. For me um I when I do go out. And play you know I'll go play on the white tees yeah because I just don't have the speed you know if I get really really good you know if I really catch one I can carry it 270 to 80 in the air. But if I could carry it 250 260 on a regular basis that's a win for me yeah. But you know that is not good Great Golf do you need is a question. For you do you think you need to be. And I think you've already just answered then.

A good goal. For a competent golfer to be able to coach because I this is why I asked this question because sometimes if I've had I do a break breaks every five series okay. And let's say go out and chop it I'll shoot in the 80s I've had a bad day and whatever the amount of comments that come in and go I'm not going to listen to you now you don't know what you're talking about I'm not gonna listen to your instruction videos you like yeah. But what um what I know about the golf swing is different to maybe how I've applied it to myself on the golf course that day I think it's very hard to apply it to yourself all the time you know like say your bodies are different you don't practice as much listen because if that was the case who would be teaching the best place in the world Elite golfers the best players in the world are not great instructors they're not no right I remember we were doing a golf school in Vegas in like the height of the Tiger Mania we're talking like 2 000. And he was in town. And we've got these eight people at a golf school at my dad's place in Vegas and we're doing long bunker right doing Fairway bunker so we've got all these people sat right after lunch and we're gonna tell them how to head out of the long bunker and tiger would come to lunch with us so now I said to Tiger I said yo were you get in. And give the long bunker lesson today.

He's like yeah absolutely. So now Tiger Woods is going to get in. And give eight average golfers how to get out of a fairway bunker yeah right. And so he gets in there and he talks about all the things that he does to to hit a fairway bunker. And everything like that and you know everybody's taking notes and they're laughing and stuff like that and he kind of is walking away. And he's he's laughing and I was like what are you laughing. And he's like no you don't want to know I was like no come on you know we're all here you can't what are you laughing at. And he's like I don't do any of that. And I was like I was like you don't do any of that he goes no I don't do any of that. And he and I was like. So why did you tell that he's like well I know what it how to get out of a long bunker. But the way that I think about it he's like they'd never figured out I was like okay you can't leave us hanging now go through what you think about to hit a long bunker shot yeah. And halfway through I said shut the up because these people will never recover I said get out of here. And he's like I told you you didn't want to hear it what he was the way his brain was operating it could never do that. So yeah I mean listen. But then.

Again I can't imagine and I've seen it in the past when when people have asked Dustin Johnson how do it a fade I mean I don't know I just yeah aiming down the left. And thinking back in I think there's a bit they don't think that they're technically listen. For everybody listening there is a big difference between playing golf. And teaching and coaching golf I think it's a skill to coach to communication it's a guidance I've been doing this. For over 20 years right I've at this point I have a PhD in golf instruction yeah right I mean that's how long I've been doing it right. And so this thing that everybody says well if you weren't a great golfer then.

Why would I come take a golf place if you look at I mean Sir Alex Ferguson did not have a stellar football career he was not one of the world's greatest footballers no right his career at Glasgow Rangers was he was not the leading goal scorer right he was not the player of the year he is arguably the greatest football manager of all time correct yes now you have guys like pep guard pep was an amazing footballer right he's a great footballer he's a great great manager like one of the best right. But there have been great managers you know in every division every league in Europe that weren't necessarily great players exactly yeah Louis Enrique just got fired by the Spanish Federation. For losing the World Cup it's a hell of a footballer yeah right. But he gets fired as a manager because the team doesn't do well doesn't mean that he wasn't a great football. But but being a great player doesn't necessarily translate into I think great instructors because most great ins players are going to tell you to do what they do right. And they're going to tell you to do what they do based off of how they do it yeah most great players don't have the the brain instruction wise first of all they don't they have no patience tour players have zero patience a tour player who's played golf that has won a major championship is not going to sit on a driving range in you know outside of Liverpool on a Tuesday night in February where it's you know Rory mcilroy's isn't going to go there. And give eight hours worth of golf lessons and do the do the 30 minute ones as well. So he's going to do it he might not do that now I think I don't think he needs to the mental capacity. And the mental fortitude that you have to have for all the instructors that are listening that's not an easy job. And it's not an easy job keep trying to keep your lessons fresh trying to keep your delivery I feel a lot of times as if I'm a stand-up comedian and what I I'm I'm a stand-up comedian and the tour events that I go to yeah they're the romantic comedies they're the big budget movies that I do right. And it's cool and it's a bunch stuff but at the end of the day if you're a if you're a comedian and you're lucky enough to be a movie star you're also doing stand-up yeah Jerry Seinfeld who's one of the Great American comedians Seinfeld one of the greatest television shows of all time Jerry is on tour 30 40 weeks a year doing stand-up comedy he's a comedian yeah. And so I look a lot of what I do. For regular golfers it's the stand-up comedy I'm I'm working on my ACT I'm taking a player that you know you'll see something from a 20 handicapper that you will never see on tour you will see somebody with a grip with a posture with a ball position with a backswing you will see a player do something that you'll go you would never see that in a competitive not a chance well it obviously wouldn't have worked well it wouldn't have worked. But you then.

Have to say Okay this is what you're presented with yeah. And you can't go okay hey I work with Dustin Johnson. So I don't have to fix this because I don't have a lot you don't have a lot of ability you you're not the most talented your body isn't great so I'm just gonna check out on this lesson now because I work with Justin Johnson and I'll pass you on somebody else I have to find a way to work with that person and I have to find a fix how about you enjoy it I do I love it because you there's always that moment we talked about this when I had you on my podcast there is that aha moment that when a player hits a shot hits a draw. For the first time as a slicer or takes a divot with a seven iron so good right or makes good content or gets out of a bunker for the first time and hits that high soft spinner that the player you can see how much that means to the player. But that means something to me and I always tell the guys that work you know at my Academy in Dubai or guys that I work with or when I do seminars um if your player's success whether there are 15 handicap. Or they're the number one player in the world if you're working with them and you know it's easy to live and die you know my wife and I we've been together now 11 years she wasn't you know from a golf background when we first started working together and I remember Ernie yells in 2012 had a chance he only hadn't won a long time he had a chance to win Tampa you know and he Bogies you know a couple holes coming in and I'm breaking and throwing stuff in the house and I'm screaming and she's looking at me she's like what the hell is wrong with you she's like you're acting like a like a child I was like this is real life this is sports there's a winner. And there's a loser well you coached him at the time yeah it was coaching Ernie. And I bet you thought don't forget commission I'm gonna make if he wins she's like what the hell is wrong with you I was like it was the fact that he had a chance to win a golf tournament didn't. And it it's beating me up so I say to people all the time you give a 15 handicap or a golf lesson and they don't hit it solid and they walk out and if you're not driving home being affected by that get a new job yes find something else to do yeah because it it should mean something to you as a golf coach you you want to help people yeah you want to help people get better. And I think. And again I must admit we were here yesterday. And you and your dad were having having dinner. And I came over another chat and what your dad said to me honestly I drove home last night with like a smirk on my face because he he said he's watching some of the videos he likes the way I deliver my content it's simple. And that's how I do like to deliver the content I want it to be simple I want people to be able to understand what I say because I think there are I think golf coaching certainly since the introduction of launch harnesses. And Technology I think it's too many golf scientists now we are Crea we have created a couple of generations now in my opinion of data collectors it feels like they're golf instructors they just take data it's all about the big words it's all about the confused data okay this is what you're doing on this is what the lawn trackman this is what trackman says great yeah now what yeah right. And here's these big words and all of this stuff and you know my that's not coaching is it no that's not coaching is understanding the person in front of you how you can get your message across. And again you hear all these stories of Sir Alex Thugs and how we managed different players it was the best people manager. And you can't you can't treat all your players the same I think my dad is as close to uh to Sir Alex as you could get right because my dad is a he is a manager of people he has this innate ability you know he's just started working with Ricky Fowler again after you know a couple of year absent. And immediately Ricky is started to play better now part of that I think he's you know my dad's ability to diagnose the process. But I also think that my dad has this ability. And all great coaches have this ability to say come with me on this journey yeah I I won't I will not let you down it's an arm around the show I will we will fix the problem I've got you I I've got you I I had that experience earlier this year we were going out to San Diego first tournament of the year. And I've been working with Pat Perez for a couple years and I hadn't seen Pat since the end of the FedEx he played he was playing in Palm Springs while we were on there. And he was like bro this is. So bad I I don't even think I'm gonna play Torrey Pines I'm hitting it sideways I was like I haven't seen you in two months. And I and I and that was you know he was trying to come out here I was trying to our schedules didn't back up. And he's like man I'm hitting it so bad he's like I'm a Tory Pines he's like and I'm shooting a million in Palm Springs right where there's no wind there's no Roth the course is you know 90 unders winning right you shoot four under in Palm Springs. And you're you know the first day and you're almost in last place because somebody's gonna shoot 61-62 right so I was flying out I was I flew out with DJ. And and we were on the plane. And I was messaging back. And forth and he's like I I think I'm gonna pull out. And I said to him I promise you we will fix this I said I promise you yeah I said. So let's get to work I said as soon as we land I'll meet you straight at the golf course. And everything and he finished seventh that week and had a legit chance on Sunday to win wow but that was again that is is that coaching. And is that instruction it's it's a big combination of both it's yeah we did some big things technically that week. But it was also me saying to him we will fix this yeah we are on the right track. And you have to buy in you have to buy into what we're working on and we're not going to throw it out on Wednesday we're going to gut this thing out we're gonna stick with this yeah you know I told Pat this year reassurance. For them I told them at the last live event you know he was really he'd been struggling he didn't play good in Saudi Arabia. And I was like okay this is what we're gonna do this week okay. But you need to be on board with what we're gonna do. But I said I. And I said this to us in front of Scotty. But I said I'm telling you this now if you throw this out Thursday. Or Friday and say I'm going to try something out I said I'm done working with you wow I said I said because you're too quick to throw things out when you have a bad round. Or you hit a bad shot one of the things I think that you know can sometimes hurt players is they're. So hard on themselves their expectations are. So high so I said we're on the right track by City you don't play Four round all three rounds all week with this you find someone else to coach you in 2023 because I'm out because I can't do my job no right if you won't let me do my job if you won't buy into what we're working on. And so I think that's you know again that's another thing that I learned from my dad is you have to exude as an instructor you have to make the student believe in what you're doing yeah they have to think that you can fix them. And you almost have to put some some accountability back on them absolutely they've got to work hard for this if we're gonna if we're going to change it it's not just one. For everyone that's listening that wants to get better at and improve their you know there's a great one of my one of my favorite people to follow um is a guy named Nick Saban Nikki is the head football coach at the University of Alabama. So college football in America and he is he's the Sir Alex Ferguson he's a giant right a bunch of national championships. And I just I'm not a huge American football guy but I am a massive fan of coaching yeah. And I watched the way Nick Saban coaches and he has this great quote he's at the he's at a press conference and he and and you can go online. And if on search on YouTube it's called the illusion of choice and Nick says you know all these kids today.

Think that they have all of these choices. And he said. But to be great you don't really have a lot of choices because to be great it takes what it takes to be great and to get better at anything the math is the math the work is the work. So for everyone listening if you are going to try. And get better at your golf taking golf lessons is hugely hugely important. But then.

It's hugely important that you as the student then.

Goes and implements what you're trying to work on and if you're going to go take a golf lesson. And you're going to work with someone. And and one I also think that there's a lot of things people listening you as the student it's your job to do your homework it's your job to figure out what you want to work on what you're good at what you're not good at what changes you want to make you have to make that Honesty you mentioned that about tracking you know performance on the golf course you mentioned not enough golfers do that I don't think the average goal. For is more worried about their doing what they're doing on the driving range than what they're doing on the golf course. And to me part of you know what we talked about earlier playing golf understanding okay I went out. And I played nine holes today.

Okay what do I need to go work on in the driving range. So everyone listening and let's say make it as simple as we can I know there's technology out there that players could use how how could they keep cat stats. And what should they be keeping stats off I mean I think if you're trying to improve your handicap one of the things that I always try to say to players is at the end of every round write down how many three parts you had okay. And then.

Right how write down how many double and triple and quadruple bugs you have yeah right okay turn the turn the three putts into two putts okay. So if you can eliminate. Or let's say you have three or four three putts right take two of those and turn them into two pots yeah okay. So that's two shots then.

Take the double bogey you made and make turn it into a bogey that's three shots now take the the triple bogey you made and turn it into a double wait so the average golfer that's listening to this in coming up at the end of 2022 and 2023 if everybody listening to this podcast made more bogeys in 2023 their handicaps would improve not more birdies not more Eagles just made more bogeys instead of doubles as opposed to the doubles and the triples yeah just make more bogeys make more parts you don't have to make two three four birdies around to improve your handicap what you need to stop doing is making eights. And sevens and nines and sixes would you what would you let's say you got a golfer writing all the three puts down and all the doubles would you then.

Also go through those three puts and go okay was there a pattern yeah is it speed control is it green reading is it technique was that too far away maybe from the hole Yeah you know did I miss all of my second putts because they were left to right. Or because they were downhills. And then.

You could start to really diagnose and go well actually I could see a pattern yeah three of those four three of those three putts they were all left to right puts well guess what let's go. And practice math to my puts or we've put you in we've got a putter Studio here we've got Sam we've got Force plates we've got six cameras we can look at all of it right. And so what I always try and do is say to a player okay let's go. And take a look at we'll put you on Sam look at what your data is we'll go ahead. And see how you're moving your weight and everything like that well video your stroke or video what the ball is doing we'll video all of that right. And then.

We'll go out on the putting green so we'll take all the data and then.

We'll go putt yeah there were loads of times someone's data is horrendous my dad is a very good putter right he's a really really good putter has been pretty much his whole life. And back in the day when he and tiger were working together every Wednesday night of a major they'd have a putting contest right late in the afternoon. And I watched my dad smoke tiger as much as tiger beat him with the worst stroke you've ever seen right so all of the data but you could get it in the hell but all of the data tells us that he's a bad putter right but you take him out on the putting green and he's a good Putter and I asked him what what do you think about when when you're putting. And he's like I don't understand the question I said what do you think about it goes making it what are you thinking about I'm like yeah no I know that he goes no no he's like there are two outcomes when you putt that's it the ball's either going to go in. Or it's not from one feet or 50 feet there were only two outcomes when you putt yeah. So for 20-footer you're either gonna make it or you're not and so in his brain he's like I don't spend any time thinking about not making it I just think about making it wow well it's interesting I think it's three options certainly around here there's making it there's not making it. And then.

Putting it off the green there's missing the green which I did which I actually did yesterday um it's a fascinating unbelievable story what what I think now before why would the as the Sun starts to come down we'll talk about you give me a little cheeky girl first let's go um. So before we go down and actually so talk me through your golf game so first of all how long have we got no okay. So let's talk what I would do is. So this is what I do when I give golfers yeah talk me through your body what what are we dealing with body wise what injuries have we had what is the body makeup I know from previous experiences I don't put to grab any injuries. And on my right ankle is weak okay. And I know that my my right hip doesn't seem to want to rotate and I feel like it's all down to the right foot so I end up I end up staying really flat-footed on my right foot I can't roll it so when I come to hit I can't roll onto the inside of my right foot and as a result then.

I get quite flat-footed from a technical standpoint when you play your best which shape do you hit do you hit draws do you hit face when I play my best I um my doctoral shot shape is a drawer okay okay when I play my best I'm thinking of hitting a fade okay. And it still might draw but I'm but basically I'm just trying to neutralize it out as much as I can. And the bad shot on the golf course historically goes where left starts left goes left starts right on target goes left right and divot pattern more on the golf course more shots that are thin. Or more shots that are heavy thin okay one thing I wanted to potentially my short game's terrible terrible as well. But that's that's a totally different story and my putting's absolutely well for but anyway we've got all that my strength is my driving okay because I feel like I can see it up I can hit up on it if I swing left which with the foot the fact that you don't have a lot of this then.

You can kind of stay back on the right foot. And launch it up on it super up on the ball you have to yeah. And then.

If I'm if I want to try and get in control I feel like I aim my body left and hit more down I don't hit down okay I hit let up with my irons I think that comes into play as well I'll get away with it with my irons because again you can kind of catch it clean. And get away with it I prefer being in the rough than I do on The Fairway okay that makes sense I hate it when I'm at a beautiful Golf Course like this. And I hate hitting on driving ranges like this because a Turf is just too pristine. And my divot pattern isn't consistent enough at all right so I'll hit a couple of pictures if someone could fix for you if we could fix the direction or we could fix the contact which would you prefer contact yeah. And and again that's to me a constant running theme in the way that I interrupt I think the everybody listening to this podcast is obsessed with the direction the golf ball is going right. And they're not as concerned and they're not as diligent and they're not as you know trying to fix the contact they're trying to fix the direction tour players have directional misses they don't have contact missing no. So people ask me all the time what separates great ball Strikers tour players from everybody the single biggest thing that separates people that you're watching on TV is their misses okay you'll see them every now. And again hit you know a bad shot yeah you'll see a player maybe out of the rough shank one you might see a player if it's wet maybe hit a little bit behind it maybe every now. And again hit within but Roy McElroy's misses are directional they are not contacted every now. And again maybe with a longer Club maybe a driver he'll hit he'll get something a little bit off the toe yeah. But the contact yeah is always good I've I've been lucky enough to play with quite a few tour players now it's the one thing when we're on a path three. And hitting shots I cannot I'll always I already know what it's gonna sound like yeah I already know what the divot pattern is going to look like I already know the the direction I don't know no they might pull one a bit left they might push. But like I said they're not perfect in that capacity. But strike wise after strike wise well if you're hitting balls at a range any range in the UK let's say you're hitting balls it's Wednesday night middle of winter and everybody you know and it's just miserable and everybody's hitting balls right and you're just hitting balls in your Bay and without you knowing it right John Rahm rocks up three stalls behind you but you're not aware that he's there I've got story about this right and you know you're hitting balls and everything by the time he starts to get to about a seven iron but by the time he gets to a five iron you're gonna turn around because you're gonna hear something that you don't hear you don't hear it yourself and you don't hear it on the driving range this happened to me I was up at a couple quite a number of years ago five. Or six years ago maybe even longer seven years ago it probably was now I was at Trump International Golf Course Aberdeen I was on the driving range about to go. And play and I was hitting some balls. And just kind of keeping myself to myself and I'm not I kind of I was aware another golfer had come behind me there was literally two of us I was aware of another golfer behind me. And uh they started hitting I was like that sounds good. And then.

Straight away they started hitting mid Lions I was like sheesh that sounds really good. And I'm thinking mine doesn't sound that good but I was right at the end of the range I'm thinking how am I getting the opportunity to turn I turn around it's Phil Mickelson. And I was like of course it's Phil Mickelson of course it is of course the sound is good there's no way that. And everyone was just buttoned up the buttoned after buttoned it was the back of the ball it was Turf it was. And like say every great golfer so out of all the things and I think again I'm not using this an excuse in the UK we hit off Maps a lot more driving range. And things like that it masks those kind of Miss strikes every time I come to a range down here I'm thinking oh God I almost I just don't want to hit balls I'd rather just go and play because it almost does my confidence least good I forgot to a fantastic Lynx golf course. And the driving range is a bit Sandy. And whatever oh God I can't stand it what about the golf course I can manage it. But I feel like on the driving range so yeah strike would be my my number one thing if we can work on that I'd be over the moon let's go do it Claude thanks. For coming on I really appreciate it but guys make sure you check out claude's podcast as well uh son of a Butch there you go Great Name by the way it's a great name um weekly episodes and uh again thanks for having me down we've had we've had Recon you know and I'm glad we could return um you being a guest on my podcast so cross-pollination they say that there you go podcast there you go he's now teaching me social media anyway guys thanks for watching make sure you like And subscribe and we'll see you very soon let's go and get the lesson.