The man with the BEST job in golf! EP145

Hey everybody welcome back to the rickshaws golf show podcast i am your host rick shields i'm here with co-host guy episode 140. five five nice all right um i'm good mate yeah this is you're on holiday i am literally right now i'm on a cruise ship right now oh no what are you doing right this minute drinking yeah drinking eating drinking partying not checking i'm gonna literally not have my phone one bit nonsense um also you know when you say that paul continued this fantastic brilliant best podcast in the world possibly even golf oh no definitely golf top three in golf it's powered by our really good friends at golfbidder if you've not if you don't know who golfbidder is make sure you check them out there's a link in the podcast description. And the youtube description it's a way you can buy secondhand golf clubs. And also sell some of your old golf clubs and get some cash hard cash back for them and also you can buy brand new golf clubs on there as well nice. So you're on holiday i am i want to give it away what you're on a cruise well that's all we'll say um i've never been on a cruise i like the idea of a cruise i've watched a lot of documentaries about cruises and they definitely look good but i feel like on a cruise like i guess it's a big one you're gonna start to recognize people people might you know others that guy also has the red shoes for example you know yeah yeah what will your vibe be. So people say if i'm on the cruise i didn't know you don't watch golf youtube don't know who you are are you the guy that's always a bit larry. Or drinking guinness oh that's that guy who's guinness at half a past in the morning what is your vibe gonna be um well obviously we're going in with the family three kids. And the wife and um we're going. For two weeks which i'm really excited about going well like because i won't say where you're there now i am literally there now i'm on holiday right now um. So obviously we're filming this in advance um so things in the golfing world might might explode yeah. And i'm gonna know nothing about it because you're up on your phone i'm actually taking a proper camera not my phone i'm gonna take my camera to take pictures because it's easy to take your phone i need i need my phone for pictures i mean. And it's easy to take your phone oh just in case i'll nip to the shop so i need to pay for anything i'd have to pay for anything you do know that i know this is all nonsense that you've got on your phone watch me i'd love you to do it i think it'd be really refreshing i am okay wow i'm going full reset mode um. And then.

If we do need to take pictures i've also got my wife's phone. But but yeah i think it's going to be kids in the kids club fingers crossed me. And claire little relaxing walk around the deck like a bit sunbathing margarita i don't even like margaritas cocktails at lunchtime lots of food lots and lots of food i'm going to come back twice the size i am i've been working out quite a bit recently. And slimming down but i'm going to come back twice the size like henry the 8th i'm going to come back big. And then.

What's what's slightly frustrating is i know i've not been playing ridiculously good golf recently. But i do feel like my game's been trending. And i feel like if i carried on playing golf now um i would continue to get better i feel i'm worried about what my golf's gonna be like when i come back one or two ways my friend you'll have to come back and be unbelievable you're driving me on point your short game will be good. Or you'll come back horrendous and for the fact of breakup new five i don't mind either way no it's good. So all the break 75s have been filmed we've filmed loads of content in the bag of uh in the bank obviously we've got loads of good good videos coming out um yeah. So i'll be drinking chilling out trying to really keep ourselves to ourselves we're not what's interesting on holiday um it's it's easy to try and make friends in it and i don't need any more you've got i've got enough i've got you kind of friend really sometimes i implore you to be my friend it's a good job so yeah the uh i'm really looking forward to it hopefully come back fully suntanned um. And ready ready to start september with a bank i know what guy you're gonna be you're gonna get people walk past and go there's that guy again that's always begging his wife for her phones we're gonna have five minutes of scrolling please five minutes there's that guy that's never off his phone no i think i i'm excited about it. And uh you know what you need a nice refresh you're looking america those hats with like cans of beer on the side you need a hat that's got a phone just sitting at the front you don't have to use your hands you just scroll with your nose no no no i am going i'm going offline now probably offline well as people will see from the title of this podcast we've got a gaston a phenomenal guest. And we're gonna do a dear rick in a minute. For the golfbidder prize well it's not gonna announce today.

Speaking of phones rick's is on standard texting myself from the future um. But today's podcast is robin heisman. And it was unbelievable um just a quick note. But you're gonna explain a bit more who he is. And what he's done etcetera so i want to say a quick note this podcast is about golf course design. So if you're listening to the podcast no worries you can have a great hopefully a great hour. Or so podcast it should be entertaining it's very insightful not full of banter but full of like really cool stories i think it would be really good one however. small piece of advice i would recommend if you're listening to maybe watch it again on on youtube because we're going to add in a lot of. So if you're watching this hello you'll see but we're going to add in a lot of footage of jcb. And some visuals as well so it doesn't mean it won't work if you're just listening. But i think watching will give an elevated experience. So robin heisman is a course architect. And course designer he um has designed multiple over 10 golf courses already and he's worked in the golf industry for many years and he works for european golf design which is one of the biggest kind of golf course design companies part owned by european tour build a lot of ryder cup golf courses championship golf courses. And robin pretty much single-handedly designed one of my favorite golf course in the world i know yours as well jcb i know we've been there a lot recently he designed that golf course insane like he designed the 17th the famous path three over water and he goes into how that accidentally happened interesting story it really wasn't meant to happen he also talks about um kind of what he loves of seeing in a different golf course what what top five golf courses i should play that i've not played yeah listen to that um just. So fascinating however. i also want to tell a story about something that you mentioned off the podcast it was after the podcast we didn't cover this we should have done. But don't worry we'll tell the story right now so right at the end he kind of said oh um podcast had finished in this like he said i had some props in my bag to show you i completely forgot i said oh what is it. And he pulled out some paperwork i was thinking what's this going to be. And out this paperwork he pulled out first off the map of jcb like the way he'd drawn it and written it and it was just fantastic we got some imagery of that we'll throw it in now. But also he said i thought you might ask me how i got into golf course design. And i was like oh god why didn't we that was that we normally do with a lot of guests we say how did you get into golf how did you get into media whatever it made me make. And i'll be honest i probably thought that it would even though it's quite a very unique job it would be quite straightforward they got into architecture of some description liked golf and kind of wanted to breed the two together but this story is much more interesting. So he basically what he's he's always loved course design and we spoke to his brother a few weeks ago up at the at the open at saint andrews because his brother andy heisman works for zen putting greens and he said even when he was a kid he was just drawing golf holes. And drawing different designs and you think that's crazy about it like i never did that i've never done that once. And um he basically at the age he was pretty young was he 19 at the time it was in 1986 right i believe he was 19. he sent a letter to one of the most famous golfers in the world at that point in fact the most famous girlfriend. And he sent a letter to jack nicholas north palm beach or whatever florida and that was it that was it he doesn't have jack nicholas's address as obviously most people don't he just posted jack nicholas north palm beach whatever it may be florida. And off it when in reality that actually just gets the post office and they just go oh yeah we can't send that there's no address yeah somehow it got to jack nicholas. And jack nicklaus obviously read it and he responded with a personalized letter back to robin signed in person by jack nicholson which we're going to put again if you watch. And you'll see it now if you're listening we're showing the letter as we speak now the letter that robin sent to jack was basically jack at this point was still in the prime of his career the same year in 1986 he won the masters. So it's not like he was he was like retired at this point. But jack nicklaus towards the back end of his career really started to get into golf course design and he's really put his name to a lot of phenomenal golf courses including murefield village which we come into in this podcast as well because he likes tricking it up and makes it interesting jack nicklaus came back with basically a list of things that robin needed to do like go to our you know agricultural college learn about course design learn about you know golf course architecture. And robin took the letter read it and thought right i'm going to do what the best golfer in the world ever has told me to do yeah. And robin did exactly that. And he now lives his dream as a golf course architect and the weird thing is that story in itself should be the end of it that should be the most amazing story i've ever heard it gets a little bit better 2012 robin decides again to send a letter to jack nicklaus. And i believe he had i'm guessing he had his address i think it was much easier to find on the internet an address that was registered to his company. Or whatever so robin sent another letter 2012. at this point robin's obviously a grown man this is uh 26 years later yeah. So you know he's a grown man he's in his 40s he's obviously now you know becoming more established in the golf course architect industry and he wrote a letter against jack nicholas saying that he basically followed his advice and he now lives his dream of being a course architect and he just wanted to send a nice letter never thinking much of it a few weeks later robin got another personalized hand signed letter from jack nicholas and what is absolutely insane about this not only does he get a reply again they're almost exactly the same the letter heading the signature at the bottom like the fact that 26 years apart you think there was six months apart. And it's kept them both in such amazing condition i think kind of adam framed yes i don't think i would have been carried around in a briefcase um. But he came to he showed him and and like i said it was a shame we couldn't tell that story in the um in the podcast. But i feel like we've done that we've done it justice i mean what an amazing guy a lovely guy very intelligent great way about him. So i'm really excited. For people to listen to this podcast and watch it we also talk about in this podcast about me designing my dream golf course yeah. So every hole is well i'm sure you can work out what every hull. For rick's golf course would be like but we come on the there's no bunk well actually there could be bunkers i love bunkers. So basically what would you i think a green you're surrounded by bunkers perfect. For you if you hit the green great you're putting massive greens yes massive you can put them anywhere um if you miss the green you're either on a perfect flat almost green yes. So it's just a green i'm gonna call it a semi-green or a bunker yes um basically the old course really pretty much yeah. And everything if you miss the bunker to the right and you've got to chip over the bunker no everything filters from the side of the bunker. So even if if you missed 50 yards right it's going to hit a bank. And trickle down into the bunker yes. And and there's also a local rule we get a free drop if you miss the green you can drop it on the green. For free that's another one as well but genuinely genuinely i reckon it even sparked my interest more after speaking to robin i would actually love to get into course design yeah later in my career whatever that looks like whether it's i know we've joked about rick's quick six um. But i do believe that i've got a good eye. For for being able to whether it's driving ranges or golf facilities or golf courses um you know i'd love to be able to kind of get involved in that as somewhat of a of a side project that a little side hustle i might imagine i do think it's quite fascinating. And robin was very humble about it imagine people watching people play the golf course you've designed he says in in the podcast again it's almost like acting like god yeah. And that's pretty cool that's what you do a lot as well i quite like that i'm gonna tell you a little secret go. For it one of the darkest deepest secrets you've wanted to have a golf course architect on for a while as you've mentioned this many times to us off podcast something of ideas or whatever and obviously we came up with the idea of having robin on because obviously we're such huge fans of jcb like you alluded to i'm gonna be honest with you i wasn't super super excited to have not not say robbing on. But have a golf course architect on because up until recently golf architecture has been something that i've never been that thought about just go to a golf course and play and hope to play well as i've played more nice courses thanks to yourself and some open venues and some great golf courses i'm starting to appreciate courses more and nice courses in the way they're designed so i was kind of opening up to the idea honest to god now it was one of the most enjoyable podcasts we've done i really enjoyed it i think not only the subject is more interesting than i thought it would be. But without blowing smoke robin was a very articulate interesting guy. And i thoroughly enjoyed every minute of it so i think you guys listening will i feel like we've wet everyone's palate enough quick okay then.

Let's do a quick deer rick. And then.

Get into the podcast so dear rick as you guys know by now is sponsored by our my argue with my best friend one of your close friends golfbidder yeah vampirican family yeah potentially we call them fam. So i text golfer to practice it i found this i actually get on with golfbidder more than i do my own family yeah maybe they're better than them. So richard cruz is just rick. And the team from golfbidder going on the cruise. And they're gonna hopefully find a simulator of whack old clubs and be like who can get the longest drive with a taylormade m1. But anyway they are very kindly given us a prize. For dear rick which will get announced next.

Week. And by then.

We'll have the amount in question i hope it's a good amount now after bigger this amount up so much but it will it will be. And also get proud of winning as well so pride's a big thing isn't it so this dear rick um it's a decent one as always if you want to get yours out next.

Week this is the last last chance emails podcast rickshield.com however. this is how it goes please keep anonymous. Or change my name if you read it out thanks okay. Or can we change his name call him um boris boris okay. So he's from boris love the podcast really makes my week feel complete okay nice paris i wanted your opinion on my status as a bandit oh okay i am he does sound like a boris boris the bandit. Or it's the aboriginal bandit double b i'm a 22 handicap i can drive 300 yards i can pitch to 5 foot. And i can chip it to 3 foot this this actually sounds like an another boris from our country oh yeah that seems to tell a few little white lies exaggerates things however. i might do this twice per round occasionally i can play phenomenally brackets. For my handicap and win stableford or even medal competitions the result is everyone knows me as the bandit boris boris the bandit. And i hear people say pretty nasty things about me coming third or higher in a saturday comp because i'm robbing them of their winnings when in reality i may shoot 17 over par twice a year that happens being a sunday comp convenient i've made a few friends that try and use me for an easy win in a doubles conf as well brilliant then.

They quickly ignore me when i realized i am actually a 22 handicap so they're thinking right boris the bandit's a good guy on your team you play with him he has a stink and shoots 40 over part they think why did i pick boris. But it isn't his locker to go and shoot a good score so he's in a bit of he's stuck in a rock and a hard place he's asking for your thoughts rick what should he do [Laughter] well um what he's saying is in a nutshell. And this is i think a lot of us have this issue your handicap is something that people signify you. For don't think there's not many amateur sports i wouldn't say maybe there's like running. And having this 5k time but if you said your mate placed five aside on a twice a week you wouldn't say how many girls do you score it's almost like you'd ask is any good. And you go oh no yeah he's decent. But that's all you could say isn't it really the only thing you might say oh when he was 40. And he had trials at bolton that's all you can really say with rooney yeah maybe you could tell can run 5k in 20 minutes 25 minutes without measurable yeah most sports i guess it's quite hard to really give a level however. with golf we have handicaps now you have a number you have it instantly tells you what level you are 100. And people rightly so have different definitions of what a good player is. And we've discussed this a load of times on the podcast and don't you've done polls online some people think that if you're off 18. Or better you're good which is understandable because 18 is the average in the uk some people might think you only go if you have nine. Or scratch or whatever it might be if you're a brand new golfer and you get heard of the guys of 24 you might think they're good. So it's very different to measure but your handicap should be really you on a good day it's a snapshot of you on a good day exactly but however. if you are off 22 you're kind of in a funny level i think because you let's be honest you're going to make bogey most holes. And you're going to throw in the odd double. But equally you can make pars of course you can. So if you had a round where you just had the best round ever and you started off with four parts in a row if for them remaining holes you then.

Play to your handicap on the rest of the holes you're gonna finish like four five six seven under your handicap yeah which would kind of people think oh is a bandit coming in with 43 stable. For the points or net 65 whatever it might be but equally from 22 you can go. And go double double double double and next.

Thing you've shot 36 over par i'm i'm i've had an experience of this recently you you've seen it in real life as well when i played in the legends pro-am john daly and adam brown the competition yes right yeah he's off 22. yes. And we nicknamed him 22. i was like 25 25 sorry he was off 25 yeah he was. And i remember i'm just looking through the messages now he sent me i remember when i picked him out the hat and he won the prize and and i said to him brilliant well done congratulations. So by the way just so we know what is your current handicap. And he actually said it's 20 he actually said tommy's 26 at the time 26.. And i didn't replies to him but i thought oh no 26 like he's going to really struggle right around somewhere like jc be off 26. card golf course my impression of the 26 handicapper is someone who you know will sometimes break a hundred yeah. But there's no guarantees no like normally. And that's a nice friendly parkland course not somewhere like jcb so um when adam signed up obviously he won the prize i'm not going to say he can't have it your handicap's too high. And i thought okay i'm just slightly kind of concerned it'll be interesting. And then.

When we found out it was text to scramble that day i was like oh actually that makes me feel a bit better because he can just kind of participate when he wants yeah he did not just participate in that day he was the main reason why that trophy up on that shelf there we came second place because. For him and i can only use him as an example i'm not saying this every golf. But it sounds like boris our bandit um because he could be called adam brown the bandit yes he could bring around the bandit brown bees um adam on that day hit some shots in my opinion that was as good as a ten handicapper yeah didn't it well strike wise. And then.

He holds some puts that litchar tall pro would be we didn't i didn't hold the putt from that location john daley didn't hold the putt from that location ollie phelps didn't but adam could we're talking 35 40 footers eagles and all sorts right but then.

What we also saw that day and i'm sure you won't mind me saying this out of the whole group he hit also some of the workshops yes like your badge unless you hit a terrible chip which occasionally you do your bad shot might be like a pull dying left yeah in terms of actual ball flight. And strike it's not that bad got up in the air you know it's not here a couple of shots that were like shanky thinny ones across the floor. And you're like where did that come from yeah. But again that's why his handicap is 25. yeah it's it's a snapshot of you on a good day. So my advice to boris the bandit is ideally to not avoid i mean really if you're winning competitions. And you're playing well your handicap should be getting docked and i think in the more newer handicap that is happening that a lot more quicker isn't it i think it's having bigger changes. So you might be of 25 have a good round and the way that your last 10 or whatever scores work out you could go on to 18 let's just say but also in a few months out you could go up back up again so the handicap system's there and i think if if you are genuinely playing by the handicapped system. And not trying to fudge it or be dodgy um you know not trying to manipulate it your handicap is is a fair reflection of your ability of golf yeah as a whole yes you're going to hit some good shots every now. And again as any golfer has the ability to do. So but you'll also hit some bad ones that balance it all out i think as well as definitely from when i i'm a member of a golf club obviously. But i don't play comps anymore but there definitely is a culture i feel a bit harsh sometimes on higher handicap players when they do have a good round. And they win a comp a lot of the better players almost look down at them and i think that's because if you're a six handicapper you're obviously a good golfer the chance of you shooting one undergrowth are very very slim like you could maybe would happen once. But it's very slim so you've got to win by seven yeah however. the chance of a guy off 25 having the day. And shooting 18 exactly that could happen that that's not that it's not like a although it's still seven shots it's much smaller percentage better than you get what i mean it's a it's a lesser percentage of the amount of shots you've hit exactly. So it is more common that higher handicappers will shoot amazing scores it just happens doesn't it um i suppose again it'd be a bit like. And i'm only using this number i think my maths are right here if you were to if you were to shoot a hundred okay normally. And you shot seven better 1993 you've shot um seven percent and um i know what you're trying to get at but it also works in the reverse as well that was the right way anyway it also works the last thing on this it also works in the reverse where a scratch handicapper can have a nightmare. But a nightmare someone off scratch might be an 82 yeah. So it's 10 over the handicap a nightmare for gas 25 could be a million 20 shots over yeah. So hopefully there's some level of clarity i've got an answer for that there's a good discussion point and i'm very excited to see what next.

Week's dear rick is because one of those four is gonna win. So the ones we've got so far barry the bandit we've got the guy who wanted to know how he could keep his wife and his dad happy and we've also got the guy who had a son who was uh dropped from 52 handicapped to 11. And was thinking he wanted to get even better. And better and better and better i wonder what next.

Week will be maybe next.

Week will be uh i was on a cruise with a golf pro who wouldn't stop giving me advice he had no phone to scroll he had no no phone scroll on he was looking around thinking that guy did you play golf yeah let me fix your swing you've got a club i don't know give me advice. And at the end of the holiday i got an invoice [Laughter] yeah without further ado we've wet your appetite enough sit back relax. And uh let's welcome to the podcast golf designer and golf architect robin heiser [Music] so rob thank you for joining us on the podcast i'm delighted to be here thank you i am really excited about talking to you because i think honestly right now i think you've got one of the most fascinating jobs in the world of golf it can be there's a little slight hesitant pause there there if you knew what i've been doing. For the last couple of days you might think differently i'm sure it's not all rosy i'm sure it's i'm sure it's very very complicated i'd love to dive into it. But it's something that every one of us that play golf yeah every single one of us regardless of the golf course that we play out whether it's a private really exclusive. And you know expensive whether it's a a public golf course or a municipal at some point somebody had to design that golf course somebody had to say well these how these are the 18 holes that are going to work. And we're going to go down here. And this is going to be a path 4. And a par 5 and everything else and obviously there's there's limitations with the land i guess when you arrive at site but it the world's your oyster once you're there surely how do you even start to picture how these holes come together i mean you've designed one of my favorite golf courses jcb golf from country club i've seen the pictures when it was a field yes quite literally a field well that that's what gets me like there's pictures within the clubhouse of before the golf course was made. And you can't fathom how somebody you have the vision to turn that what's essentially like a farm into a world-class golf course it's insane so how do you do it that's a big question i guess you start the way you kind of suggested you just basically start laying out little lines on a plan you don't try. And do it all at once the first thing you've got to do is basically try. And work out the layout plan i'm actually going to go one step further back than this when somebody wants to build a golf course okay. So they've got they've bought this land or they've they own this land they go i'm going to build this little golf course you that i'm guessing then.

Their job is to try. And find a golf architect a golf course designer okay. And i'm guessing there's quite a lot out there yes of certain different pedigrees. And certain different you know styles and you know some some designers probably like to have a lot of bunkers some like to probably have different tight holes or dog legs how does the the golf course that's about to be built first off pick a designer how do they decide i want that guy to design this golf course well let's use jcb as an illustration because it's quite a good story behind that. So the company i work for european golf design is 50 owned by the european tour okay. And on the bottom of the tours web page there's a little link to european golf design so there's a chap jcb called alan thompson who was like their development manager. And he might be the only person in history to find that link okay because it's well hidden. And they decided at jcb they wanted to have basically a golf course they could hold their version of something like the john deere classical the firestone invitational on their golf course so he went to the european tour website to see what he could find so he found this link down the bottom of the page and he only called up our office now the the tour's office is in wentworth our design office is in sunnydale's just down the road. And this is where it gets a little bit weird about why. And how i'm here sitting with you talking about it um because we've got about eight people working our office and ordinarily there's maybe six of us or you know before code in the office and you're all course architects and designers we've got um four course architects in our office managing director uh cad support computer design accountant things like that yeah. So on this particular day there was only me. And matt who's our cad engineer in the office so i would normally be quite a long way down the pecking order for a phone call coming in because it would go to the managing director or my colleague ross who designed wesley park you know all about his work or maybe gary before it gets to me so the phone rings matt picks it up takes his guy's um inquiry and he rings through to me and says rob there's a guy from jcb on the phone who wants to talk about golf courses can you help him out. So my immediate thought was oh it's some sales rep they want to sell some diggers to us yeah. Or golf clubs or to some crack contractors on they want to kind of sell some products so i'll pick up the phone and say it's robin heisman here can i can i help you. And it's this guy ellen thompson lovely scottish fella and he said oh hello my name's ellen thompson um we at jcb here are quite interested in designing a golf course on our land we wonder if you could help us out. So my eye is pricked up at this point oh you're like okay this was a good time to pick up a phone call this wasn't what i was expecting. So we got talking and he said to me he said what i've done is i've um i've overlaid augusta national on our piece of land to see if it fits. And i think it does. But i'm no expert i really like to get your opinion on that. So okay that's nice way to start this yeah you're saying all the right words. So far so i said well let me flip open google earth. And we can have a little look you show me where you are um show me what the piece of land is. And we'll we'll have a chat so we did that. And then.

You know you've been it's kind of kind of like a plectrum shaped piece of land surrounded by roads next.

To the factory so i looked at that we talked you through about 10 minutes and i said okay here's here's what we'll do i'll come up. And see you and we'll you can talk me through this we'll walk the land. And you can just sort of explain it. And we'll we'll take it from there there's no charge let's just just talk now that's basically equivalent of me now putting a flag in that project at european golf design it's my project yeah you've got our rh written all over all over it because there's no one in the office. So i couldn't kind of refer you what you couldn't do no there's no way you could hand it over to someone else it was yours then..

So i arranged to go up a few days later and um i mean i knew nothing about jcb as a company other than you know their diggers. And you get stuck behind them on country levels and so everything that was about what i knew. So i drove up to roaster and then.

Of course you see the headquarters and you think oh my god this is this is something a bit extra huge in it yeah this is more than it is it's a town it's own town really. And that's only one of four or five in that region you drive past on the a50 a couple more so we um we went into the factory he walked us through the building upstairs to his office and you know it's that kind of long walk through hundreds of meters of desks and then.

Then.

We eventually went out on the site so that's basically how i got involved working for jcp um i mean at that point i hadn't seen the site. But it was right well i get the idea that this company is a serious they're not going to be an old company yeah they're not going to build a normal golf course they're going to build something pretty special well they wanted something they could hold a professional tournament on we work. For the tour we design rider cup courses we design lots of tour venues so we kind of understand what it needs yes. But we got no say on what the site is here. And so you know that the stakes were quite high in what they wanted. But at that point we didn't know if the site they had available would would suffice um so that's when the the hard work started going across the road. So you're out on the fields you're walking it yeah. And what are you already at that point starting to go okay are you looking at the space. And the land are you looking. For iconic features obviously there's the wonderful lake there which you built the phenomenal 17th hole on are you starting to look at okay maybe this could be the starting point this could be the end this it could wrap are you looking at the the routing. Or you're looking at where par fours would fit how what's the next.

Stage um yeah before you even think about where the clubhouse is going to go you're kind of looking. For the holes that the site is giving you. And um that gave us a few kind of like clues in the crossword or sudoku it was like oh all right that's a that's a hole there. So for example the very first hole i found was hole 11 yeah down by the brook oh that's beautiful in it yeah yeah it it that's very augusta style i think that whole with the stream just down the left-hand side it's almost like yeah it's almost like the 13th. But the wrong the wrong way around and it's also a little bit like the 12th the par 3 or guster well it was immediately apparent to me when i saw that you know there's a stream was already there obviously. And it kind of just flowed and you were like okay yeah i can see something working there. So like that's the building block you've got that hole it's going to start here. And it's going to end there yeah what can we get to join up with it. So the next.

One that kind of came up to to shape was a first now you know the alignment of the first was what i first saw. But the way it looks now is is very very different to how we first saw it um we took about 150 000 tons of earth out of that first halt down the left was the lake there was the water there the the big lake wasn't there oh wow no no the one in front of the green was there the one in front of the green was there that's called a winding hole back in the days of the canal that's where they would turn the barges around oh my god yeah i mean that closed back in the early uh 19th century that was closed. For 150 years then.

The railway line ran along with the first tee is that is the railway line um. But the story behind that one is that um you know you've got the old hall with seat hall there yeah it's amazing. And that was planned to be the clubhouse uh lord bamford you know kind of envisaged that as being the clubhouse. And he said to me that you know if we're in the clubhouse i'd like to be able to see the water in the canal um. But it was impossible because it was because of the hillside in the way it was a big wide road going up to the arena. So that hole was designed not only from the teed looking towards the green. But from the hall looking down the valley so that you could see water so that so that whole bay was created primarily to give the view from where the clubhouse was going to be. But of course it fits in beautifully we're giving you that amazing tee shot off of the uh railway i think just a quick note if people are listening at home we might put some of the footage of the holes over the video version the podcast if you want if you're listening in the car be sure to watch the youtube version as well you'll see the whole it's a little bit visual yeah it's very visual. So you're starting to pop these holes and you know where 11 is. And you know where the first is. But you maybe don't know the order of the holes just yet yeah let's say then.

You've you've left site you've got a rough idea. And you've left the site do you then.

Work with your cad engineer back at european uh european golf designs to start planning this out a little bit more no no it's all done entirely by hand in fact all the drawings are done by hand you draw them i i draw them all of it. And then.

We get it computer drafted we draft it in to produce the drawings for the documents but all the holes were designed behind. So you have a massive desk i'm guessing really as big as this yeah with a huge map on it yes like a google earth map something is it. Or is it even better than that oh it's about it's a one to two thousand i want to a thousand scale. So it's quite big and is it is it google earth style it was it was to begin with we just scaled off google earth from an aerial yeah. And i basically kind of played join the dots you know you put the 11th on you put the first one you're literally just drawing it on the golf on the map just in pencil yeah. For the first couple of months there was nothing more um technical than the pencil lines on a piece of tracing paper just while i worked out where the holes were going to go. But obviously i know we're talking about jcb a lot because it's something that i've obviously no. But this is not your first project is it you've done many other golf courses no i've been going out this now um 31 years wow since it was my first job. And what was your first ever golf course pretty much on your own um well i had my own company up in scotland after i was made redundant the age of 26 which is not a good hp major done in architecture. So it was a singer swim situation then..

So i went up to um to aberdeen where um a project i'd worked on previously for my first employer um they fell into dispute and they came back and asked me to carry on you know i had to kind of make sure i kind of have a clean break but that was my first one on my own up there in at d side golf club in scotland right. And it's amazing the way in which things happened just by word of mouth you know i i was marking out a bunker on their new 18th hole when the green's chairman of d-side introduced me to the greens chairman of royal donut. And before you knew it i was engaged by them to redesign their second course the stewie um just from word of mouth well you think about it that must have what happened in in the past yeah old tom morris would have been word of mouth alistair mckenzie would have been word of mouth yeah like to go around to all these different places. And you were quite a historic in the in the world of kind of golf architect do you have you look back. And studied these these kind of icons of golf architect design oh yes yeah you can't really fake it you know um unless you know what all the reference points are from back in history. And who have you got a favorite course designer from back in history um probably mackenzie i would say i like the fact that he was quite avant-garde he was prepared to to stir things up a little bit he didn't play it safe i'm confused because i i pulled up allison mckenzie's golf course designs that he's done okay yes. And in the amount of time that he had considering travel wasn't as easy back then.

When he was designing them he designed. So many golf courses in a really small period in a very short period of time yeah well it's often the case back then.

That they wouldn't spend as much time on a project as we do now they might kind of visit do a plan. And leave it in the hands of a trusted contractor to do it. So they might turn up do do the site walk like you did yeah that just somewhere like jcb has seen this land they might have a they've had a big map back then.

Like would they've still had a big map yeah they would have they'd have quite good maps back then.

Kind of beautifully hand-drawn topo maps. And things like that yeah. So then.

They would have they would have drawn out the where the holes are going to be. And then.

Actually just pass on that design for someone else to actually build yes i mean if you take royal melbourne. For example and he's one of his most famous designs but he only went there once wow he he didn't see it at all after it was built because he left it in the hands of his associate there in australia when he was off by then.

In america. So he would have had people working under him is that right am i saying that is this would this be true um. Or people who are local to the sites yes he would more likely he would have sort of agents in the countries he worked in i mean he did he did this grand tour of australia left a a bunch of designs. And then.

A guy called claude morcom he he kind of interpreted alastair's requests and and built the courses on his behalf you never saw it again that's unbelievable so that's why he designed so many because he wasn't he wasn't at every site for a year two years plus he couldn't have been he was there. For a quick visit quick site view not quick but i'm sure quick in the grand scheme skill the scale of things drawn it all out and then.

Passed it on to whoever else to build yes. But i think later in his career we went to the america. And settled in america he did spend quite a lot more time on his projects over there. So you know augusta cyprus point yeah paso tiempo is a one of course in california he even built a house on. So he spent a lot of time on that so interesting so you you've you've drawn out and you've got you've got all the designs and you know exactly where your 18 holes are going to be do you then.

Have to i'm guessing present that to the golf venue. For approval and do you have to present it to anybody else. For recommendations or or is this doable because i could i could if we had a map now in front of us right with a blank canvas i actually think i could draw a golf course right. But to say then.

Whether it's any of it's feasible whether any of it's actually doable for example the 17th green you build a built a jcb you might have drawn that and gone yeah let's just make this a bit bigger. And just make that an island there's got to be a point you go actually is it doable oh yeah there's definitely a point. And that 17th hole is a good example of exactly that um do you mind if i tell you how that came out because that land wasn't on the site they gave us they gave us the fields on the other side that lake wasn't part of the the golf course development site no way no it was not there because it was a you know a fishing lake it was um a lake like a leisure center wasn't it really yeah yeah there was a kind of the leisure club. So i was up on site um [Music] looking at the 18th hole. And the 18th hole played from the 17th tees to the 18th green that was the hole i was looking to design. And you can still see it now you could play the whole yeah you could there's something yeah yeah just give it a go see what you think i will actually recently when i went. For the jcb championship um i went with the family we're in a golf boogie and normally when i play 17 obviously go down and go down the bridge and play the hole and come back but because spectators couldn't go down the hill down to the 17th green it was it was transporting you down past the 18th yeah it took a cross didn't. Yet and i i drove down i was like oh yeah i could i could see imagine this is a hole well it was that was it it was going to be the 18th. For quite a long time where was the other hole going to be was there another hole squeezed in yeah there was um i'll i'll come to that in a minute because it's got 17.. So i stood on the 17th tee as is now. And i looked across to my left and just under the canopy of the trees i could just see this little sliver of blue water the lake down below and i thought you know if you just go over there and just kind of trim some of the trees we can give the golfers quite a nice view of the lake just you know just just kind of landscaping yeah. So i wandered over there kind of poked on my head under the trees and bizarrely on the other side of these trees there's a gap in this forest just a grass hillside looking straight down at the island and i didn't know the island was there until that point. But the island was really small wanted it it was yeah yeah it was very narrow it's about 15 yards across. And then.

About 80 yards wide and it about two seconds later i thought oh you could probably just about hit that far from here and that was the kind of the seed of the idea of well okay well god you imagine if we put a green out there that's going to be iconic. For for jcb i can just imagine that moment couldn't yeah. And what year was this by the way 2012. okay it was 10 years ago 10 years ago you could stand there. And go yeah yeah that could be a hole. So i took actually took a picture on the um you know when i told you about just seeing the water i took a photograph of that moment i thought just and that was the exact moment i first saw it. And then.

I went across the trees took another picture and it was like that kind of hallelujah moment you think oh my god this is it this is the this is unlocking the potential of this entire golf course by doing this. But i had to persuade them to let us have the island so i did a sketch. And i did a little plan um. And what it did was it gave us an extra hole over there which means you didn't have to have one elsewhere on the back line. So that gave us a space for the 13th hole the great big yeah wow because it was not going to be a power five then.

No we would have had to have had two. Or three holes in that field and of course now it's just an enormous piece of land with one hole in it and we were really struggling to find a par five. For that one yeah. For the for the back nine but i was happy with the front nine. But the background at jcb was not strong until i found the 17th hole. And that was it it was right okay there's the idea how do we make that work. And how do we not embarrass ourselves by you know getting the dimensions wrong. Or the green side wrong and all that kind of stuff and uh so yeah there's quite a bit of science went into that green because you know actually how'd you make it you made it five times bigger if not more well it was ten times bigger yeah. But there's a bit of margin for error there i went on the internet and i went looking for um kind of roll out for a drive because it's going to be 250 plus yards i thought this is going to be tragic if you hit down there. And nothing will stop on it. So i made the green 50 deeper than i knew it had to be for for a ball to stop that's why it's so big um and then.

We just had to figure out okay how are we actually going to build this thing as you know you couldn't get to the island the only way you could get there was by a boat at that time it's such a clever hole because off the black tees which we've played it off it's very daunting. But actually when you do look at the surface area there is quite a lot of room. So it's catchy room it's good because you get that feeling of like if you hit the green you're very happy you're over the moon you tell your friends you hit the green on 17 at jcb and it's becoming an iconic hole in its own right as it deserves to be but actually it is more generous than it looks isn't it if you hit that island you celebrate that's what i mean also there's lots of tea options as well which i think is good that the ones that the the seniors was off was a little bit further forward yeah such a good hole it is i mean it's it's too big. For me i'm not good enough to hit it off the back tease but you guys do. But i i was there obviously a couple of weeks ago i hit everything from six nine to three wood in a week because the wind was. So different yeah i mean it's usually a bit downwind. But you're so high up if you get anything coming out of the right and you just don't feel it you just it can just send it anywhere yeah no it's. So clever when when that was finally put together did you have a moment done that team just gone wow i've done it this is this is the best hole i've designed. And and is it the best hold you've designed is the better is the better ones um it's certainly the most i don't know you probably don't have to say the best hoe you designed because then.

There's other golf courses. So why don't you build why didn't you build it our golf course well you know actually i think i prefer the night the jcb to that one the ninth is well i like up the ninth. So i feel again we'll put images on this if you look if you watch if you've been watching the recent matches with the guys from goodgood on my channel it's the first hole we play yes. And i think. For me lucky enough to play jcb twice now we've been obviously loads of times filming it's actually a course that although it's beat me up both times i've played it it's my fault because i kind of a driver however. it's a course that i've got to love more the more i know it and i think nine is a whole that when i first played it i was like yeah it's a nice little path three i was. So excited. For 17. but actually going back. And playing it more and seen it more now i think nine isn't necessarily a better whole than 17 they're very different. But it's a very almost underrated hole it's a lovely hole isn't it really is a nice hole that one yeah it was it was the last hole on plan um because. For i don't know two or three years i was sold on the idea the ninth hole aiming at the old towers of the of the hall. And the hole was going to play there fully designed everything staked out everything. And um just one day i thought you know what if you if you just slightly hook one off of that you're just going to brain someone on the 10th t. So i thought okay well we've got this other little kind of patch of grass across to the right i'm going to move it there it's going to create a load more space. For grandstands and circulation and fans let's move it there so it's a very last hole to be designed and um you know it's the probably the best decision i've made in my career to move that green there wow that's really cool i know you actually moved the green you didn't move the t now the t stayed where they were more. Or less but but the green was going to go more left of the trees yeah where the tent t is now basically uh no if you stand on the knights team kind of look straight at the old hall it was in that little gap no way. So again you've designed it mm-hmm you've had it approved yeah approved from the golf venue i'm guessing jcb. For this example you had it approved by those guys yeah i'm guessing you've got to then.

Plant like start work like how does that how does. And and you don't have to i know i'm conscious we talk about jcb a lot today.

But it's obviously somewhere mutually i know have i played in any of your other golf courses that you've designed um probably not because we don't tend to work too much in the uk um i've designed a course in bahrain one in morocco czech republic wow um got one in bulgaria right now one in arctic circle in norway oh what so we could just do a fun life series of break 75s at your golf courses. And probably not do it once yeah um. So yeah. So um you've planned it all out you've got everything approved it's now time to start do you get involved in that as much as as you you can do. Or you would do. Or you're on a stage yeah you do yeah is it as in well as iran oh totally yeah oh years. And we started building it in 2014 and we finished in 2018. and you there pretty much every week every week we were building it i was i was there. For two three days a week at least yeah oh my god. And it was really wet what just a wet period of time well it was really wet. But the ground it's i mean you know it's the potteries it's clay it doesn't seem like a wet course now though there's been a lot of trees a lot of drainage um some air now they've got as well they've got yeah they've got some we've put in all the kind of the sub air pipe work i mean they've only oh did you yeah it's all in there we just got to put in the electrics um. And they've put a lot of sand capping in in the last 12 months that we didn't have the budget for at the time but um yeah it was it was a horrible sign there's a guy uh i don't don't if you know madame lawrence he writes a magazine called golf course architecture. And he said that the jcb site was the wettest site he'd ever visited wow you wouldn't think that he wouldn't it was it could be mashed my knee i mean i've ruined my left knee walking around there over there over the ruts. And was it literally was there ever a point you walking around. And going this won't this won't work here no there was never a point i thought that i mean there's always a way we can drain anything uh no no that wasn't the point i thought it wasn't going to work that's amazing. So you you shut the shovel hits the ground and off you go and are you is it like a team meeting every week how cause i think if i designed it i know what i'd be like dog legs left every hole there's a few of them. But i i would be i'd be too i'd be really like i wouldn't be able to let people do stuff i'd be too controlling like i'd be going no no no no i had this bunker doing that no whoa whoa whoa we had this tea like how do you make sure everything gets done to the level that you expect it to do do you have a team that works under you do you have meat you have like do you have like a greens team. And a teased team like how does that all work well in this instance jcb um built it themselves they were the main contractor. So i was the architect. For them but they they were building it. And they kind of uh well between us we arranged to bring in the subcontractors and we had specialist shapers uh who i recommended to them and uh and the shapers is that all they do they shape golf courses yeah basically they're they'll go around the world just shaping golf courses 100 of the time. And i'm guessing it's all machinery to shape a golf course yeah yeah it is now yes mostly bulldozers excavators obviously we had several excavators we could get around yeah. But but you're then.

You and your shape and the shape in it so are you are you quite controlling in that situation. Or are you comfortable. And confident enough to go okay i'm gonna let these guys do what they do because they're the best in the business well i've done the the drawings. And the the drawings are quite detailed. And prescriptive so um i mean i know exactly what it should look like. But that's it kind of gets you so far and then.

The final 10 15 percent is is kind of you're winging it a little bit you just because it might not quite look how you thought it would. And then.

You you just kind of massage it and do it by eye i would say that generally speaking they look a lot like the plants. But if we only built them to the plans it wouldn't be as good as if you were out there just with your skilled people sometimes it's actually better off to work off plan totally because it works in that environment. And the shapers and the actual experts know okay yeah i understand that on the plan. But in reality right now that's not going to work we need to we need to have this bank go this way we need to make sure that green structure falls off of whatever it may be yeah there's an awful lot of you know doing it by eye doing it by hand just doing it by experience rather than slavishly following a plan. But that gets you a long way down is other plans i find that absolutely incredible you know when you have these um named players come to design a golf course okay. So let's say sir nick faldo for example okay because he has faldo designs right yeah you might never say oh you might do they have a real big say in the first stage of it. And then.

Hand it over to her team or or is it more just a branding kind of exercise now like do you do have you seen do you see when like faldor designs a golf course montgomery designed the golf course even tiger woods has been designing golf courses are they working closely with someone like you i guess of course architects. And designer or are they are they rolling out the maps. And drawing it by hand well i've done two courses with them on with monty one in morocco one in bahrain and uh you know he he was there with me. But you know his his career is as a professional golfer um. But it does vary i mean certain certain guys do get stuck in more than others some you know it's a it's an endorsement contract basically um monty monty did chipping quite a lot i saw quite a bit of him. And does he have someone like him let's say. For example will he have because again guy joking there all my hulls i'd be dog leg left. So i could just do a golf course in a circle um do guys who have a tendency to hit certain types of golf shots want to design a golf course that would actually suit them as a golfer well it's always been said if you play a a nicholas course they're all kind of set up. For a fade into the greens yeah um now i know we wouldn't do that slavishly. But you know you kind of can see that sort of pattern i suppose if you stand in a piece of land. And you're looking at a shot shape that you're thinking right how could this hole be a hole and you only see shot shapes that move left to right it's probably easier for you to set up like a bit of a fading hole i guess you know if that's that's how you play golf as such um so that that's quite interesting so so you don't so it's different depends on it varies a lot and location but and also you know it's the time of their career in which they find themselves i mean. And fowler's been much more in involved in recent years since he stopped playing yeah um it was said that jack nicklaus could tell you everything about every hole he designed um you know because he he knew his stuff. And uh you know i i tend to believe that because is it muirfield village nicholas has recently completely changed the whole golf course oh he does it every year um i don't know if you saw a couple of years ago when they held the memorial um while they were putting out on the back nine they were digging up the greens yeah yeah yeah i did yeah it's his kind of he does to that what they do to augusta every year he tinkers i find sometimes you'll see pictures aerial pictures obviously probably fraudulent ones. Or illegal ones of augusta when it's not april yeah. And it often doesn't look like augusta we expect it to look like like there's been pictures leaked recently of an extended thirty two years so they built the road and they built they got they bought the golf course near it and they built the road extended the road and everything else that looks so different how we see it in august every single year is that because they do. So much subtle work but it kind of it blends over time how do how do they make these subtle changes at somewhere like augusta yeah it looks like it's been there forever well they have an off season there the summers are. So hot um that's when they do all the work. And they'll rip it up every summer pretty much for the before they come back in the autumn time no they get quite aggressive with augusta national every year they'll it'll be dirt a lot of the time during the summer if they're regressing. Or redoing the greens or what have you um on their side is the fact that it's it's warm it's wet they've got irrigation they can grow things out really quickly. But you know large parts of the golf course are redone every year um as we all know it's a lot different than it used to be yeah of course a lot longer. So this 13th t has been quite a long time in the in the offing that they're going to bring since bubba knocked it over the corner that time i can't remember what year it was. But they were like that hole needs to be extended. And it finally has been extended well they want to kind of get it back to what it was a real gambit par five it could become a little bit too straightforward. For these guys do you think there is an issue with course architects. And modern course design so obviously the open has just been the old course okay the winning score was 19 on the par yeah however. it seems to get a lot of media talking oh it's not long enough it's not tough enough anymore these guys can just rip it apart. But it wasn't it was only a couple of weeks later at the pga tour event i can't remember even what golf course they are the winning score was like 25 underpass. And this was like a modern course does somewhere like the old course it can still stack up to tournament play can't it well it can i mean we saw this year i think more than any other they really put those pins away in places no one had ever seen them put before to protect the course against you know the distance um i mean there are teas on the old course now that were out of bounds all the way coming in on the back nine those t's are all stuck them out on the eden course. Or the driving range and there's a limit of so far they can go with with the old course if the weather lays down flat it's defenseless. So they've got those hole locations uh when you're getting open at sentences you just pray for a bit of wind because it's that's a real equalizer yeah. But yeah the modern golf is all about power i mean just watching you with the good good guys i mean they're hitting tee shots on those videos i wouldn't even have conceived of they were hitting it longer yeah. And um i mean i've had this discussion quite a lot in relation to jcb i won't go on about it too much. But we have a battleless course architects with technology um there's only so much we can do when the ball is in the air you know they can fire it over bunkers all day long. But when the ball's on the ground then.

We've got your attention the technology isn't neutralized when the ball is on the ground. So you know i advocate green complexes being really technical greens themselves being really technical so it puts a lot of pressure on approach play and the angle in into a green that's our to me that's the defense we have as architects against the power game is by making the targets tricky yeah that's the pot you can see that at jcb there's lots of greens that are very undulating. And if you hit the green hit the wrong part you're going to have a potential three-part on your hands yeah. And it got commented on quite a lot by players in the legends event you know and it shook them up a bit and i like that i like to get under their skin i like them to be annoyed quite frankly your job is to annoy you yeah i mean the architect pete said he he's one of his famous quotes was when you get those guys thinking they're in trouble yeah that's good i think yeah yeah. And that's been a bit of a mantra for me and um you know i take a bit of flack for it and i did not long after i saw you i took a bit of flack. But i'll leave it at that i know there was one golfer who i spoke to the night of who you just mentioned actually who definitely was was complex about some of the greens mr montgomery did he out did he bend your ear you might say that i can't possibly comment he definitely said some of those greens are the wrong way around. And i was like that's normal sign when people have had a bad day though isn't it let's be honest if you play well it's the best course in sliced bread i was like we just come second in the program they're fine mate don't worry. But we were saying that we said in the last podcast um that we did well the one before about how as golfers are getting knowed how it can be. So good one day and not the next.

But what we thought was crazy was how on the first day james kingston shot 62. i think the second day was 74.. And that just shows that one day he's kind of ripped the course up but the next.

Day he couldn't couldn't break par no. And um i was talking to gray macdonald the chief executive jcb while he was doing it. And he was getting quite worried he's saying we can't have a 25 under winning. And um i i did say to him don't worry he'll wake up tomorrow. And shoot 75. he went and no that surprised everybody i mean we know that they were playing um quite a long way forward. For guys of their skill yeah um i mean still nearly 7000 yards. But you know all the scoring holes they were playing well forward. But even so 62. yeah it's crazy no one got anywhere close to that that's the weight when you go. And play golf yeah can you actually enjoy it. Or are you constantly looking at golf course design no i can i can switch off i can i can i can play jcb now as a golfer. And kind of detach myself from well i did that i can just enjoy it as a golf course you ever hit into a bunker. And go out there why did i put that bunker there it happens a lot. And i am terrible at bunkers i mean honestly my courses shouldn't have any at all if i was designing. For myself what what's your style do you have you have an actual style of course like obviously mckenzie had the double tiered greens um i don't really know many others to be honest nicholas let's say has a bit more of a fade design do you have a do you have a style that you like to stick to um well i think the greens are quite yeah the greens have a certain look to them did you do you want in let's how many because how many courses have you designed right now oh god i never think about that what more than ten yeah more than ten yeah after 50 courses that you design in your career let's say what do you want when somebody walks on. And goes is this a heisman you go oh yeah this is a heisman how can you tell it's because of the seventh amazing bar three i've had 42 puts do you think it is that do you think it is the complexes to the green you want to be known. For no. And do you want to be known. For anything or do you want loads of different styles no i don't want to be self referential i think you need to be i'm very mindful if i've done something before i think oh hang on a minute i don't want to do that again i want to do something different um i like bunkers to be visible i like them to be dramatic. So you know we put a lot of work into making the bunkers you know really set into the landscape that's something really i put a lot of effort into because you play a lot of modern courses and you just can't see anything yeah there's a few that you just like i didn't even know there's a book there now. But you can do that intentionally. But i think it's very easy to to correct that. And make it stand out um so the ones we've done there in staffordshire are particularly noticeable. For that they really do add to the to the scenery um [Music]. But no i i'd like to think that if you played the ones i've done in that say since i joined egd that you wouldn't necessarily tell that it was the same guy. And is that what you want is that the that would be what i'd want um. But i wouldn't yeah there's some architects the song designers have a style. And they stick to it oh totally yeah yeah there's a few architects you could blindfold me put me in the car. And drop me in the middle of their golf course and i'll tell you in two seconds who designed it wow and what you're looking for is it the bunkering is it the where the t locations are that the the um whether you've got a hitting right. Or left or left or right earthwork style i think it is it's a style of the shaping that's um immediately identifiable. For some people yeah is there a golf course an old one. So let's say it's a press wake or a saint andrews that you would love to get your teeth into to redesign and have you do you do read designs yes it's getting quite popular now isn't it well yeah you've got to consider that um building new courses is really not the name of the game anymore um. For 90 percent of us in this trade it's it's renovation work it's extension work um so yeah. For every new course you build there's a future potential renovation job restoration job to be done the only time now you'd often see new courses being built in the uk is if someone sold a course. For housing and then.

Go to relocation um so yeah there's a lot of a lot of that um to answer your question um it's not actually that old the the second course of bali bunion i don't know it. But was designed by robert trent jones in the in the 80s. And i love it to bits and they've had a bit of a tinker with it but um even he himself said in his like later years that that was his biggest mis opportunity he had an amazing piece of land. But you just didn't do it justice i've really it's quite interesting i'd love to get hold of that um. But they i think they've probably done what they're going to do with it. For now um yeah there's a few i'm not trying to think what i can do about that. But there's been a lot of work done on links courses around the country recently yeah um you'll see all the kind of the open venue courses all had a bit of a brush up yeah definitely in recent times well one of the one of the more famous ones obviously it's not on the open roster currently because of political reasons. But trump uh turnbury oh it's an amazing course like that's i've actually believe this or not and you you might you want to walk off the podcast when i say this i've never been to turnberry i've never played it in its original condition i've never played it in its new condition it's definitely a break 75 coming up there i believe i believe it's spectacular yeah it's wonderful it is brilliant what they did there i remember peter alice. For donkey's years would look at that ninth hole at two embryo the old one and say oh if only they put a par three across the bay here it would be a world class hole and they eventually did. And um it's it's really made you know that course so much better what they've done with it in recent years it was a bit disappointing before your next.

Project okay yes i i want you to give me the the dream plot of land. So the phone rings at egd and they go hi it's rick shields here and i want to design a golf course okay. And you go what patch what where is it what patch of land is it yes what would you love me to say because i'll go. And bite i'll go go and buy it we'll do one together i would honestly genuinely hand on her i would love to design golf courses get involved in that i think it it fascinates me it is at times the most rewarding profession you could possibly have yeah bar you know winning golf tournaments i think because you know you do have that kind of opportunity to kind of just you know kind of play god in a way you're kind of looking at it yeah i wanted to look like this. And you know i'm going to do that. For five years later so go on i'm on the phone and okay i've got a patch of land what would you want it to have sand lots. And lots and lots of sand so you'd want it to be linksy or not you want it preferably linksy uh but it could be heathland okay yeah that's good because with sand you can just do amazing golf courses quite cheaply. And is that because of what's those new things now called like um sand scrapes they're like bunkers. But they're not a bunker oh i've done a few of them in the past they've got really popular like we we played the new car the new hole at royal liverpool a few weeks ago yeah. And the new seventeen arch field as well and archer field and it just looks so good when they've done but it's not a bunker but it can be a bunker. But it's just natural it's lovely yeah. And um in the right place they look amazing they actually take a a ton to look after because you know grass wants to grow and it'll fill them in if you don't look after them the piece of land that i really wanted has actually got a golf course on it now oh wow um and um it's it's where they built st patrick's and ireland don't know it you don't know it rosa penner now is that the one that eric did a video on yesterday i'm sure adventures in golf aren't ericander's life i haven't seen it did an adventures in golf count literally yesterday. And it was in ireland. And it was unbelievable. And i'm probably 99 sure what's and it looks unbelievable i mean what a name. For a golf course as well said patrick's an island because they had two golf courses on that piece of land in the past that were done really you've got it yes it is yeah oh my god we'll put a picture up i'm sure that's the one that's over oh it looks it i haven't got my glasses on yeah it looks like links it ross yeah he's put the last course. And lush links i literally watched my stay and couldn't believe how i've never heard of that place is it amazing looked unbelievable that's the patch of land by the ocean yeah because i went there oh gosh when they they had these two old courses on it that they'd just done locally. For next.

To no money. And i turned up there to play them and they'd actually closed they'd have been abandoned um and they sold the land to a developer who'd gone bust so these two golf courses were just lying abandoned on this incredible piece of june land. And they just sat there that way for about 10 years until the rossi penal hotel next.

Door bought it out of uh administration and hired tom doke to put one golf course on this land that previously had two and uh i played it last year playing it again in september and it's probably the last linx course they'll build in ireland that's what they've said yeah because you can't get permission to build a new new links land anymore. But because it was already a golf course it didn't need to was it tom morris beforehand was it because i'm sure there's a tom morris like memorial thing there isn't i told morris did the original course yeah um. And then.

Um pat roddy did the sandy hills links which is there. And then.

Tom dope did this some patrick's landing why not letting them build on link's course anymore link's land protected it's all environmentally protected now well wildlife. And things yeah yeah that makes sense. So this looks pretty good though that's the spot yeah well it would have been yeah there's there's some bits up in um scotland i think are still on military land that no one really knows too much about there's a load down near carnoustie the burden links firing ranges at the moment some amazing links land there there's some amazing links land in the place called the colbin forest up near nan it's all covered in trees. But um you know mythically people are saying if they took the trees off it would be uh some of the greatest links courses you've ever seen in your life. So there are a few places just whether you can get permission. And is scenery a big thing. For you on a golf course it it is. But i think you can create scenery looking inwards if you don't have it looking outwards um. But um yeah. For sure if you've got a mountain backdrop or an ocean backdrop it does a lot of heavy lifting. For you yeah that's one thing we've had a lot of open courses recently i've been very privileged to do. So and like carnoustie is obviously a legend of a golf course. And yeah. So it's a shame that you can't see the the sea at all and then.

You go to like a king's barn or wallace we played the other day i was. So impressed with wallace see how you can just see the ocean next.

Year it does really add something yeah it's like bali bunion you go to bali bunny. And you're just transfixed by the ocean on half of the holes there no one designed that it's just yeah lend into the golf course free of charge give me five courses robin that i have to have to play you have to play geographically i'm gonna go st patrick's on that list worldwide worldwide. Or uk let's go uk first let's go uk you can see how you've done as well all right well i'm going to send you to khan in ireland okay um i i paid a. For a life membership there and have yeah i have. And that was quite an investment. But it is it's the most majestic links course you've ever seen in your life it is incredible right. And it's in the middle of nowhere and it takes a lot of effort to get there so there's two iris courses we'll stop with them um five courses you have to play i suppose up in scotland if you've never been to dornick you should play that if i don't look you really ought to feel like i've not played enough golf courses you should play go there in june june why is the rough up no you can just play until midnight all right okay. So doors are tools golf club yeah yeah um quite a link quite a list. So far it's quite um oh yeah i'm quite i'm taken by that you want to inland one go. For it mix it up a bit inland one painswick i love i i like how i've not heard of them though it makes payne's wick payneswick painswick that's in gloucestershire right it's less than 5 000 yards long love it already you might break 75. you might break 65 quite frankly uh it is just the weirdest quirkiest golf course on the planet. But it is just adorable oh my god okay. And then.

Give us one more give you one more what what do you fancy inland. Or like a heath under one if that one wasn't already what about cover because we played oldly and we loved it but apparently no. So we played more town didn't we all woodley's meant to be even better i've had sunnydale are both unbelievable never played you said your office isn't sunnydale sunnydale yeah um although i don't know it very well i mean if you have you played it you got to play certainly now is that it suddenly no yeah. And then.

One worldwide i think i'm going to give you a toss-up between pine valley i've heard about it. And cyprus point have you been to pine valley i've walked yes i've walked it. But i haven't played it question then.

I've hit a lot of people say pine valley's number one in the world you hear people say county down as well recently i'm not sure you obviously know much better than we do i've watched from the drone footage um i think it's golf dad just done it off pine valley yeah it looks great. But what is it about it that's. So good i think it's it's almost the ultimate test of nerve because it's. So penal i mean they have a local rule there because you're only going to play it once ever in your life if you ever get a chance to play it what's the rule what's the local there's no preferred lies you can't lift. And drop from anywhere right on the golf course even if you're under a route behind a tree uh there's an old there's a story about a guy who who set off the first uh four holes come back to the clubhouse and i think a first five. For four holes in the fifth is part three. And he i think he'd gone birdie birdie eagle birdie then.

He holding one oh my gosh on the fifth. And he said well i'm gonna nip into the clubhouse to get a drink before i carry on. And he never came out it was like he never finished completed golf it was um you know you can't do any better than that on this course oh my god. But there's the i've got a history book there and then.

There's a of pine valley and there's a whole chapter about people who had these incredible disasters playing out there and you know shooting 25 on a hole because they couldn't get out of a stream and they had to their ball kept and rolling down the stream and they have to come and say what drops out of water no there was no well you know if you lost the ball in the lake you got to take a drop. But if you can see the ball you got to hit it. And what's crazy i know it's very hard to say but what do you think is the best golf course in the world well that's a tricky one a lot of people would actually say royal melbourne's west coast is the best in the world there's a sort of purist example of golf course architecture at its best you know best bunkering the best greens they're just the best layout i have played that one. And it is remarkably good. And there's there's a a couple of holes at jcb are kind of modeled on holes from royal melbourne seventh hole particularly jcb um part five up there no this is the one one down yeah yeah with very strong dog look um i yeah i think there's quite a good consensus that might be if you went to the ranking list it's usually pine valley is number one. But you know you you'd you'd manage it quite nicely because if always a huge um you know it's it's not long it's just one of those courses that it will shred your nerves if you've got a bit of a glitch in your swing which course you said royal mel ball which one west west the west yeah they use a composite course in the um in the president's cup it doesn't look nice um. So okay. But have you can you give us the number one what would you say do you give us number one then..

Or not i'm gonna go roll melbourne i think that's probably the best architecture. And i guess that's my kind of specialist subject yeah there you go amazing well rob you have been absolutely phenomenal today.

Loved having you on um i feel like we need a part two at some point in the future when i want to design my own golf course okay yeah we'll call it scentrix we'll get rid of the pats separate them out. And we'll uh we'll put it on we'll put it on the best patch of land in the world and we'll make some incredible the only thing is you've rick you've got quite short patience with things. So rick would want to design and then.

It'd be ready like maybe two weeks later three weeks ago you've got the best contractors with jcb we'll get some astroturf just a bunch of asteroids straight down robin you've been amazing i can't wait to follow your journey play more your golf courses play the top five list that you give us and uh good luck with it all and uh keep killing it keep keep designing these amazing golf courses rick thank you very much you.